Joe Posnanski's Top 100 Players in Baseball

tbf i don't think anyone in the world outside of jerry reinsdorf wanted baines in the HOF

Something of an extension to his Schilling post, Joe argues today that both Felipe Alou and Dusty Baker should be in (or, more accurately, that there should be a mechanism in place for the likes of hybrid careers like Felipe Alou's and Dusty Baker's): "Honor great baseball lives." I don't disagree. I used to make more or less the same argument for Leo Durocher, before he was finally inducted in 1994--that he was so integral to so much baseball history, the sum was greater than the parts. (Durocher's managerial career was actually pretty similar to Baker's: good career winning pct., very little to show for it in terms of postseason success.)

Pete Rose, #9 on Posnanski's Outsiders list. I figured out a way to quickly compile the whole list--I'll do that later today.

ooh that wld be great, thanks

100. Juan Alberto González Vázquez
99. Fredric Michael (Fred) Lynn
98. Rocco Domenico (Rocky) Colavito
97. Albert Jojuan Belle
96. Samuel James (Jimmy) Tilden Sheckard
95. Quincy Thomas Trouppe
94. Fernando Valenzuela Anguamea
93. Darrell Wayne Evans
92. Steven Patrick (Steve) Garvey
91. David Gene (Dave) Parker
90. Frank Oliver Howard
89. Albert (Al) Oliver
88. Willie Larry Randolph
87. William Lance Berkman
86. Paul Aloysius Hines
85. Ronald Ames Guidry
84. Walter Anton (Wally) Berger
83. Dwight Eugene (Doc) Gooden
82. Elston Gene Howard
81. Orel Leonard Hershiser IV
80. William Nuschler (Will) Clark Jr.
79. Urbain Jacques (Urban Shocker) Shockcor
78. Jorge Rafael Posada Villeta
77. Louis Rogers (Pete) Browning
76. Bobby Lee Bonds
75. Timothy Adam (Tim) Hudson
74. Francis Joseph (Lefty) O’Doul
73. James Sherman (Jim or Jimmy) Wynn
72. John Garrett Olerud
71. David Gus (Buddy) Bell
70. Howard Ellsworth (Smoky Joe) Wood

T-69. Omar Enrique Vizquel González
David Ismael (Dave) Concepción Benitez
Dagoberto (Bert, Campy) Campaneris Blanco
Mark Henry Belanger

“I basically think all four players have roughly an equal Hall of Fame case to me. If I had to rank them in the order I’d vote them in, I suppose I’d go like this:

1. Bert Campaneris
2. Omar Vizquel
3. Dave Concepción
4. Mark Belanger

But honestly, as players, I’d vote them all in or none of them.”

68. Torii Kedar Hunter
67. Dan Raymond Quisenberry
66. Richard Benjamin (Dick) Lundy
65. Charles Ernest (King Kong) Keller
64. Andrew Eugene (Andy) Pettitte
63. Mark Alan Buehrle
62. John Wesley (Jack) Glasscock
61. Roger Eugene Maris

T-60. Vernon Decatur (Vern) Stephens
Anthony Nomar Garciaparra

59. Walter Williams (Billy) Pierce
58. Stanley Camfield (Stan) Hack
57. Grant U. (Home Run) Johnson
56. Wesley Cheek (Wes) Ferrell
55. Salvatore Leonard (Sal) Bando
54. Maurice Morning (Maury) Wills
53. Donald Arthur (Don) Mattingly
52. William Henry (Willie) Davis
51. Rickey Eugene (Rick) Reuschel
50. William Frederick (Bill) Dahlen
49. William Ashley (Bill) Freehan
48. Bernabé (Bernie) Williams Figueroa Jr.
47. Sherwood Robert (Sherry) Magee
46. James Lee (Jim) Kaat
45. John Christopher Beckwith
44. Vada Edward Pinson
43. Thurman Lee Munson
42. Theodore Roosevelt (Double Duty) Radcliffe
41. Bob Kelly (Bobby) Abreu
40. Thomas Edward (Tommy) John
39. Jeffrey Franklin Kent
38. Alejandro Oms
37. Kenton Lloyd (Ken) Boyer
36. David Andrew (Dave) Stieb
35. Pedro (Tony) Oliva López Hernándes
34. James Kevin Brown
33. Graig Nettles
32. Rafael Palmeiro Corrales
31. Bret William Saberhagen
30. Curt Schilling
29. Reggie Smith
28. Doc Adams
27. Johan Santana
26. David Cone

T-25. Felipe Alou
Dusty Baker

T-24. Sammy Sosa
Gary Sheffield

23. Fred McGriff
22. Keith Hernandez
21. John Donaldson
20. Manny Ramirez
19. Todd Helton
18. Bobby Grich

T-17. Luis Tiant
Billy Wagner

16. Kenny Lofton

T-15. Andruw Jones
Jim Edmonds

14. Mark McGwire
13. Gil Hodges
12. Shoeless Joe Jackson
11. Dale Murphy
10. Dwight Evans
9. Pete Rose

Cutting, pasting, cutting--not that onerous. So really there’s going to be 110-120 players by the time he finishes. (He should have had Rose and Shoeless Joe as a tie.) He stopped with the full names inside of #30--I really liked those. I'll update as he counts down.

terrific, thanks p!

79. Urbain Jacques (Urban Shocker) Shockcor
62. John Wesley (Jack) Glasscock

normal baseball names, nothing to see here

Shockcor was a shocker--never knew that.

Schilling was on his Top 100 list, so he does allow overlap...with that in mind, I'm trying to guess the remaining eight.

Bonds and Clemens. (But not A-Rod--when he began, he put him in a separate list of best 10 players not yet eligible.) Probably a tie at #1.

Lou Whitaker, Scott Rolen, Buck O'Neill...and then I get stuck.

8. Curt Flood

Of course--when I was trying to guess yesterday, I was scanning WAR charts on Baseball Reference, down to about 60 career WAR. I added O'Neil because Posnanski was his friend and has written numerous columns on him. Now that Joe has clearly factored character-counts into his advocacy, Flood is an obvious choice. (Posnanski sits about halfway on that question, I'd say--he's still going to have Bonds and Clemens on his list. He's an inch to the right of wherever Schilling exists on that spectrum.)

I sent this a Hey Bill" into James last summer:

This years Veteran's Committee ("The Golden Era"--ugh) covers Curt Flood's window, 1950-1969. I think Flood should be in the HOF already, but voting him in this year, would, I feel, make a strong statement about the moment we're in. Not sure if you agree--you may not--but if you do, the problem then becomes how do you categorize him? He was a good player who falls short based on his on-field career, with the mitigating circumstance that his career was cut short because of the very thing you'd be inducting him for. But can you call him a builder? That seems weird.

Answered: 8/29/2020
Player and pioneer.

So he didn't say whether or not he agrees that Flood should be inducted.

(I said on some thread the other day that all my posts strategically leave out one word. Except when I strategically add one--get rid of that "this.")

i have been working on leaving out one additional word per post, every year that i'm on ilx. by the end, my posts will just be one or two words, tops, and probably just conjunctions by that point

So he didn't say whether or not he agrees that Flood should be inducted.

didn't say so explicitly, but any true "pioneer" of the game (like Flood) is HOF-worthy, imo.

I'm a month late with this, but a category for "hybrid" HOF careers is sorely needed.

7. Dick Allen

I must have assumed he'd already been listed.

That leaves Bonds, Clemens, O'Neil, and Whitaker for sure, I think; Rolen probably (doesn't make sense to me that he'd be this high, but it makes even less sense that he wouldn't be in the Top 100); plus one more.

O’Neill I wasn’t expecting.

Paul O'Neill at #3 will not make me happy.

(If you go back a few posts, I misspelled his name too!)

I don’t see it at all. He’s nowhere near those other guys.

Buck O'Neil in; Paul O'Neill, no.

(Unless you mean Buck O'Neil shouldn't go in as a player. I don't know enough about his playing career, but I'm basing that on this move in the direction of character, combined with Posnanski's friendship with him.)

6. Lou Whitaker

5. Scott Rolen

4. Roger Clemens

I bet he puts Buck O'Neil at #1 and not Bonds. Still not sure who the third will be.

3. Barry Bonds

I started skimming the Bonds comments, and the thing I've been puzzling over was made clear: Minnie Miñoso will be #2.

2. Buck O'Neil

Minoso at #1? I'm surprised. Posnanski is also obsessed with Duane Kuiper, maybe it'll be him.

1. Du...Minnie Minoso

Also, there’s this: A SABR researcher named Scott Simkus added things up, and he found that when you add together Miñoso’s Major League hits, minor league hits, Cuban League hits, Mexican League hits and Negro Leagues hits, you come the staggering number of 4,073, seventh all-time. Here’s that list of players with more than 4,000 total professional hits:

1. Pete Rose, 4,769
2. Ty Cobb, 4,379
3. Ichiro Suzuki, 4,367
4. Henry Aaron, 4,245
5. Jigger Statz, 4,093
6. Julio Franco, 4,074
7. Minnie Miñoso, 4,073
8. Derek Jeter, 4,059
9. Stan Musial, 4,023

The fifth most hits ever is by a guy named Statz.

i will admit to being ignorant of all things Buck O'Neil. what's the case for him?

former NL player of middling quality but P much invented the NL HOF in Kansas City, was an advocate on behalf of all the NL greats and forgotten greats, beloved Baseball spirit, first black coach in MLB for CHI C

should be in as a builder at the very least

like, if Yawkey is in the HOF buck o'neil should be above him for so many reasons

a guy named Statz

5-foot-7, 150-pound pacific coast league legend

I think a lot of people got to know Buck O'Neil through the Ken Burns film; he's in it a lot, and he's great.

I looked up Statz this morning--four consecutive years of 240+ hits in L.A. of the PCL.

it's amazing how many games the PCL scheduled in those days -- statz played 199 games in 1926!

guess you can do that when the games don't take three hours

I think a lot of people got to know Buck O'Neil through the Ken Burns film; he's in it a lot, and he's great.

― clemenza, Tuesday, January 26, 2021 11:21 AM (seven hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

He's great in Jazz too, especially if you are familiar with Baseball. The way he talks about Henry Aaron and similar to the way he talks about Billie Holiday.

Had no idea. I have Jazz and have been meaning to start it for years.

i can't look at buck o'neil without slowing zooming and panning

"We are living in a moment where Chris Sale — one of the most accomplished pitchers of our time — goes 2 2/3 innings, allows five hits and one run, and he’s getting congratulated in the dugout like he just flew the first trans-Atlantic flight."

(I just noticed Karl's post directly above--perfect!)

In the interest of fairness, Posnanski's column is actually in praise of pitchers today, contrasting the lineup Rodriguez faced last night with a Twins lineup Koufax faced in 1965 when he pitched a two-hit WS shutout--substantially more daunting to be a starting pitcher today.

I had no idea his Top 100 book is 880 pages...I think the longest single volume I've ever read was Tom Jones in university (as opposed to, say, Stephen Ambrose's multi-volume Nixon biography). I will get this at some point when it's (much, hopefully) less than the $50 Amazon is charging right now.

Finally started in on the book; waited all year hoping for a price drop, never happened. (The paperback's slated for early next year.)

Not sharable, but an excerpt about last night's game (which I had to miss):

And that’s true, as far as it goes, but what they don’t acknowledge is that it isn’t a fair fight. If you have two great boxers in the ring, say Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier, you get the Thrilla in Manilla. But what if in the third round, a manager comes in, takes the gloves from Joe Frazier, and hands them to George Foreman. And in the fourth, the manager calls for Joe Louis. And in the seventh, he calls for Rocky Marciano. And in the eighth, he calls for Mike Tyson, who gets in some trouble, so the manager stops the fight in the middle of the round and immediately brings in Evander Holyfield.

I mean, what chance does even Muhammad Ali have in a scenario like that?

...

I worry that sometimes these sorts of essays come across as me screaming at clouds and wishing to turn back the clock...but that’s not how I mean them. I’m thoroughly aware that you CANNOT turn back the clock. And I love baseball as much today as I ever have.

No, I write them more to point out what’s happening in the game because it can be super easy to miss. There are no announcements.

Did that guy know that baseball and boxing are quite different sports cos I’m worried he doesn’t.

He probably doesn't know that, no.

Sorry for the sarcasm...mounting frustration.

what on earth is he talking about there?

He's talking about how overmatched hitters are today in the middle-late innings, and making a fanciful analogy to boxing to get the point across. I'm pretty sure it's not meant to be taken literally--Posnanski's a great writer before he's anything else, I'd say. And he's observing, not complaining--I made sure to include those last two paragraphs, which appear later in the article, to head off any carping about him clinging to a game that doesn't exist anymore.

("There are no announcements": it helps to read the whole thing, obviously. It begins by contrasting football, where--according to Posnanski; I don't watch football, so I don't know--the league is very aware of what fans want, and tinker with the game to please fans, as opposed to baseball, where things just happen before fans are even aware that it's happening.)