X -- I really like your post, even though I'm not where you are in my own thinking. Which, at this point, is more muddled than ever. I want Schilling in, remain indifferent to Bonds and Clemens, and balk at the idea of Baines (and Vizquel, and other good guys)--is there any consistency there? In my mind there is, but I don't know anymore. I want Dick Allen in; he was considered a bad guy for most of his career, now he's a good guy. I'm fine with Kirby Puckett; good guy (more than just good) when he played, now a villain. I suspect Posnanski's Schilling piece today may be seen as influential down the road. Sean Foreman voted for Tim Hudson, left Schilling off.
― clemenza, Saturday, 12 December 2020 03:35 (three years ago) link
tbf i don't think anyone in the world outside of jerry reinsdorf wanted baines in the HOF
― ✖, Saturday, 12 December 2020 09:12 (three years ago) link
Something of an extension to his Schilling post, Joe argues today that both Felipe Alou and Dusty Baker should be in (or, more accurately, that there should be a mechanism in place for the likes of hybrid careers like Felipe Alou's and Dusty Baker's): "Honor great baseball lives." I don't disagree. I used to make more or less the same argument for Leo Durocher, before he was finally inducted in 1994--that he was so integral to so much baseball history, the sum was greater than the parts. (Durocher's managerial career was actually pretty similar to Baker's: good career winning pct., very little to show for it in terms of postseason success.)
― clemenza, Friday, 18 December 2020 16:15 (three years ago) link
Pete Rose, #9 on Posnanski's Outsiders list. I figured out a way to quickly compile the whole list--I'll do that later today.
― clemenza, Thursday, 14 January 2021 16:41 (three years ago) link
ooh that wld be great, thanks
― early-Woolf semantic prosody (Hadrian VIII), Thursday, 14 January 2021 16:42 (three years ago) link
100. Juan Alberto González Vázquez99. Fredric Michael (Fred) Lynn98. Rocco Domenico (Rocky) Colavito97. Albert Jojuan Belle96. Samuel James (Jimmy) Tilden Sheckard95. Quincy Thomas Trouppe94. Fernando Valenzuela Anguamea93. Darrell Wayne Evans92. Steven Patrick (Steve) Garvey91. David Gene (Dave) Parker90. Frank Oliver Howard89. Albert (Al) Oliver88. Willie Larry Randolph87. William Lance Berkman86. Paul Aloysius Hines85. Ronald Ames Guidry84. Walter Anton (Wally) Berger83. Dwight Eugene (Doc) Gooden82. Elston Gene Howard81. Orel Leonard Hershiser IV80. William Nuschler (Will) Clark Jr.79. Urbain Jacques (Urban Shocker) Shockcor78. Jorge Rafael Posada Villeta77. Louis Rogers (Pete) Browning76. Bobby Lee Bonds75. Timothy Adam (Tim) Hudson74. Francis Joseph (Lefty) O’Doul73. James Sherman (Jim or Jimmy) Wynn72. John Garrett Olerud71. David Gus (Buddy) Bell70. Howard Ellsworth (Smoky Joe) Wood
T-69. Omar Enrique Vizquel GonzálezDavid Ismael (Dave) Concepción BenitezDagoberto (Bert, Campy) Campaneris BlancoMark Henry Belanger
“I basically think all four players have roughly an equal Hall of Fame case to me. If I had to rank them in the order I’d vote them in, I suppose I’d go like this:
1. Bert Campaneris2. Omar Vizquel3. Dave Concepción4. Mark Belanger
But honestly, as players, I’d vote them all in or none of them.”
68. Torii Kedar Hunter67. Dan Raymond Quisenberry66. Richard Benjamin (Dick) Lundy65. Charles Ernest (King Kong) Keller64. Andrew Eugene (Andy) Pettitte63. Mark Alan Buehrle62. John Wesley (Jack) Glasscock61. Roger Eugene Maris
T-60. Vernon Decatur (Vern) StephensAnthony Nomar Garciaparra
59. Walter Williams (Billy) Pierce58. Stanley Camfield (Stan) Hack57. Grant U. (Home Run) Johnson56. Wesley Cheek (Wes) Ferrell55. Salvatore Leonard (Sal) Bando54. Maurice Morning (Maury) Wills53. Donald Arthur (Don) Mattingly52. William Henry (Willie) Davis51. Rickey Eugene (Rick) Reuschel50. William Frederick (Bill) Dahlen49. William Ashley (Bill) Freehan48. Bernabé (Bernie) Williams Figueroa Jr.47. Sherwood Robert (Sherry) Magee46. James Lee (Jim) Kaat45. John Christopher Beckwith44. Vada Edward Pinson43. Thurman Lee Munson42. Theodore Roosevelt (Double Duty) Radcliffe41. Bob Kelly (Bobby) Abreu40. Thomas Edward (Tommy) John39. Jeffrey Franklin Kent38. Alejandro Oms37. Kenton Lloyd (Ken) Boyer36. David Andrew (Dave) Stieb35. Pedro (Tony) Oliva López Hernándes34. James Kevin Brown33. Graig Nettles32. Rafael Palmeiro Corrales31. Bret William Saberhagen30. Curt Schilling29. Reggie Smith28. Doc Adams27. Johan Santana26. David Cone
T-25. Felipe AlouDusty Baker
T-24. Sammy SosaGary Sheffield
23. Fred McGriff22. Keith Hernandez21. John Donaldson20. Manny Ramirez19. Todd Helton18. Bobby Grich
T-17. Luis TiantBilly Wagner
16. Kenny Lofton
T-15. Andruw JonesJim Edmonds
14. Mark McGwire13. Gil Hodges12. Shoeless Joe Jackson11. Dale Murphy10. Dwight Evans9. Pete Rose
Cutting, pasting, cutting--not that onerous. So really there’s going to be 110-120 players by the time he finishes. (He should have had Rose and Shoeless Joe as a tie.) He stopped with the full names inside of #30--I really liked those. I'll update as he counts down.
― clemenza, Thursday, 14 January 2021 19:39 (three years ago) link
terrific, thanks p!
― early-Woolf semantic prosody (Hadrian VIII), Thursday, 14 January 2021 19:43 (three years ago) link
79. Urbain Jacques (Urban Shocker) Shockcor62. John Wesley (Jack) Glasscock
normal baseball names, nothing to see here
― Karl Malone, Thursday, 14 January 2021 19:47 (three years ago) link
Shockcor was a shocker--never knew that.
― clemenza, Thursday, 14 January 2021 19:52 (three years ago) link
Schilling was on his Top 100 list, so he does allow overlap...with that in mind, I'm trying to guess the remaining eight.
Bonds and Clemens. (But not A-Rod--when he began, he put him in a separate list of best 10 players not yet eligible.) Probably a tie at #1.
Lou Whitaker, Scott Rolen, Buck O'Neill...and then I get stuck.
― clemenza, Thursday, 14 January 2021 22:10 (three years ago) link
8. Curt Flood
Of course--when I was trying to guess yesterday, I was scanning WAR charts on Baseball Reference, down to about 60 career WAR. I added O'Neil because Posnanski was his friend and has written numerous columns on him. Now that Joe has clearly factored character-counts into his advocacy, Flood is an obvious choice. (Posnanski sits about halfway on that question, I'd say--he's still going to have Bonds and Clemens on his list. He's an inch to the right of wherever Schilling exists on that spectrum.)
I sent this a Hey Bill" into James last summer:
This years Veteran's Committee ("The Golden Era"--ugh) covers Curt Flood's window, 1950-1969. I think Flood should be in the HOF already, but voting him in this year, would, I feel, make a strong statement about the moment we're in. Not sure if you agree--you may not--but if you do, the problem then becomes how do you categorize him? He was a good player who falls short based on his on-field career, with the mitigating circumstance that his career was cut short because of the very thing you'd be inducting him for. But can you call him a builder? That seems weird.
Answered: 8/29/2020Player and pioneer.
So he didn't say whether or not he agrees that Flood should be inducted.
― clemenza, Friday, 15 January 2021 13:19 (three years ago) link
(I said on some thread the other day that all my posts strategically leave out one word. Except when I strategically add one--get rid of that "this.")
― clemenza, Friday, 15 January 2021 13:23 (three years ago) link
i have been working on leaving out one additional word per post, every year that i'm on ilx. by the end, my posts will just be one or two words, tops, and probably just conjunctions by that point
didn't say so explicitly, but any true "pioneer" of the game (like Flood) is HOF-worthy, imo.
― Karl Malone, Friday, 15 January 2021 17:23 (three years ago) link
I'm a month late with this, but a category for "hybrid" HOF careers is sorely needed.
― NoTimeBeforeTime, Sunday, 17 January 2021 22:40 (three years ago) link
7. Dick Allen
I must have assumed he'd already been listed.
― clemenza, Monday, 18 January 2021 14:37 (three years ago) link
That leaves Bonds, Clemens, O'Neil, and Whitaker for sure, I think; Rolen probably (doesn't make sense to me that he'd be this high, but it makes even less sense that he wouldn't be in the Top 100); plus one more.
― clemenza, Monday, 18 January 2021 14:39 (three years ago) link
O’Neill I wasn’t expecting.
― FRAUDULENT STEAKS (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Monday, 18 January 2021 20:54 (three years ago) link
Paul O'Neill at #3 will not make me happy.
(If you go back a few posts, I misspelled his name too!)
― clemenza, Monday, 18 January 2021 23:03 (three years ago) link
I don’t see it at all. He’s nowhere near those other guys.
― FRAUDULENT STEAKS (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Tuesday, 19 January 2021 02:45 (three years ago) link
Buck O'Neil in; Paul O'Neill, no.
― clemenza, Tuesday, 19 January 2021 05:56 (three years ago) link
(Unless you mean Buck O'Neil shouldn't go in as a player. I don't know enough about his playing career, but I'm basing that on this move in the direction of character, combined with Posnanski's friendship with him.)
― clemenza, Tuesday, 19 January 2021 05:58 (three years ago) link
6. Lou Whitaker
― clemenza, Tuesday, 19 January 2021 13:12 (three years ago) link
5. Scott Rolen
― clemenza, Wednesday, 20 January 2021 13:12 (three years ago) link
4. Roger Clemens
I bet he puts Buck O'Neil at #1 and not Bonds. Still not sure who the third will be.
― clemenza, Thursday, 21 January 2021 14:03 (three years ago) link
3. Barry Bonds
― clemenza, Friday, 22 January 2021 13:57 (three years ago) link
I started skimming the Bonds comments, and the thing I've been puzzling over was made clear: Minnie Miñoso will be #2.
― clemenza, Friday, 22 January 2021 14:17 (three years ago) link
2. Buck O'Neil
Minoso at #1? I'm surprised. Posnanski is also obsessed with Duane Kuiper, maybe it'll be him.
― clemenza, Monday, 25 January 2021 13:34 (three years ago) link
1. Du...Minnie Minoso
― clemenza, Tuesday, 26 January 2021 13:55 (three years ago) link
Also, there’s this: A SABR researcher named Scott Simkus added things up, and he found that when you add together Miñoso’s Major League hits, minor league hits, Cuban League hits, Mexican League hits and Negro Leagues hits, you come the staggering number of 4,073, seventh all-time. Here’s that list of players with more than 4,000 total professional hits:
1. Pete Rose, 4,7692. Ty Cobb, 4,3793. Ichiro Suzuki, 4,3674. Henry Aaron, 4,2455. Jigger Statz, 4,0936. Julio Franco, 4,0747. Minnie Miñoso, 4,0738. Derek Jeter, 4,0599. Stan Musial, 4,023
― clemenza, Tuesday, 26 January 2021 14:01 (three years ago) link
The fifth most hits ever is by a guy named Statz.
― clemenza, Tuesday, 26 January 2021 14:53 (three years ago) link
i will admit to being ignorant of all things Buck O'Neil. what's the case for him?
― FRAUDULENT STEAKS (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Tuesday, 26 January 2021 15:43 (three years ago) link
former NL player of middling quality but P much invented the NL HOF in Kansas City, was an advocate on behalf of all the NL greats and forgotten greats, beloved Baseball spirit, first black coach in MLB for CHI C
― Its big ball chunky time (Jimmy The Mod Awaits The Return Of His Beloved), Tuesday, 26 January 2021 15:48 (three years ago) link
should be in as a builder at the very least
like, if Yawkey is in the HOF buck o'neil should be above him for so many reasons
― Its big ball chunky time (Jimmy The Mod Awaits The Return Of His Beloved), Tuesday, 26 January 2021 15:50 (three years ago) link
a guy named Statz
5-foot-7, 150-pound pacific coast league legend
― mookieproof, Tuesday, 26 January 2021 15:50 (three years ago) link
I think a lot of people got to know Buck O'Neil through the Ken Burns film; he's in it a lot, and he's great.
I looked up Statz this morning--four consecutive years of 240+ hits in L.A. of the PCL.
― clemenza, Tuesday, 26 January 2021 16:21 (three years ago) link
it's amazing how many games the PCL scheduled in those days -- statz played 199 games in 1926!
guess you can do that when the games don't take three hours
― mookieproof, Tuesday, 26 January 2021 16:30 (three years ago) link
― clemenza, Tuesday, January 26, 2021 11:21 AM (seven hours ago) bookmarkflaglink
He's great in Jazz too, especially if you are familiar with Baseball. The way he talks about Henry Aaron and similar to the way he talks about Billie Holiday.
― Van Horn Street, Tuesday, 26 January 2021 23:41 (three years ago) link
Had no idea. I have Jazz and have been meaning to start it for years.
― clemenza, Wednesday, 27 January 2021 00:38 (three years ago) link
i can't look at buck o'neil without slowing zooming and panning
― Karl Malone, Wednesday, 27 January 2021 05:25 (three years ago) link
"We are living in a moment where Chris Sale — one of the most accomplished pitchers of our time — goes 2 2/3 innings, allows five hits and one run, and he’s getting congratulated in the dugout like he just flew the first trans-Atlantic flight."
― clemenza, Tuesday, 19 October 2021 16:12 (two years ago) link
(I just noticed Karl's post directly above--perfect!)
― clemenza, Tuesday, 19 October 2021 16:49 (two years ago) link
In the interest of fairness, Posnanski's column is actually in praise of pitchers today, contrasting the lineup Rodriguez faced last night with a Twins lineup Koufax faced in 1965 when he pitched a two-hit WS shutout--substantially more daunting to be a starting pitcher today.
― clemenza, Tuesday, 19 October 2021 18:04 (two years ago) link
I had no idea his Top 100 book is 880 pages...I think the longest single volume I've ever read was Tom Jones in university (as opposed to, say, Stephen Ambrose's multi-volume Nixon biography). I will get this at some point when it's (much, hopefully) less than the $50 Amazon is charging right now.
― clemenza, Friday, 12 November 2021 20:53 (two years ago) link
Finally started in on the book; waited all year hoping for a price drop, never happened. (The paperback's slated for early next year.)
― clemenza, Tuesday, 11 October 2022 02:07 (one year ago) link
Not sharable, but an excerpt about last night's game (which I had to miss):
And that’s true, as far as it goes, but what they don’t acknowledge is that it isn’t a fair fight. If you have two great boxers in the ring, say Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier, you get the Thrilla in Manilla. But what if in the third round, a manager comes in, takes the gloves from Joe Frazier, and hands them to George Foreman. And in the fourth, the manager calls for Joe Louis. And in the seventh, he calls for Rocky Marciano. And in the eighth, he calls for Mike Tyson, who gets in some trouble, so the manager stops the fight in the middle of the round and immediately brings in Evander Holyfield.
I mean, what chance does even Muhammad Ali have in a scenario like that?
...
I worry that sometimes these sorts of essays come across as me screaming at clouds and wishing to turn back the clock...but that’s not how I mean them. I’m thoroughly aware that you CANNOT turn back the clock. And I love baseball as much today as I ever have.
No, I write them more to point out what’s happening in the game because it can be super easy to miss. There are no announcements.
― clemenza, Sunday, 30 October 2022 23:55 (one year ago) link
Did that guy know that baseball and boxing are quite different sports cos I’m worried he doesn’t.
― barry sito (gyac), Monday, 31 October 2022 00:12 (one year ago) link
He probably doesn't know that, no.
― clemenza, Monday, 31 October 2022 00:13 (one year ago) link
Sorry for the sarcasm...mounting frustration.
― clemenza, Monday, 31 October 2022 00:15 (one year ago) link
what on earth is he talking about there?
― FRAUDULENT STEAKS (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Monday, 31 October 2022 14:55 (one year ago) link