"Drawn Into the Flight Path of the Sounds": Xenakis Listening Thread

Are you reading Harley's 150+ page monograph on Kraanerg? Either way, I'm glad it exists.

I've never heard the Callithumpian Consort's recording with Stephen Drury at the helm, which is apparently the most detailed in terms of soundstage (figures, since it's also the most recent), so I think I'll go with that one when the time comes.

That's the one I listened to. And, no, I just read the few pages on Kraanerg from the book that is an overview of Xenakis that anatol linked earlier. The other one might be worth reading! Tbh, I had only known Harley as a composer and hadn't realized (or had forgotten) that he had written musicological books on Xenakis. It probably did come up at some point.

Maybe a legit candidate for best living Canadian composer?

I'm not familiar with his music at all. Which of his works would you recommend to a neophyte?

Tbh, I was going less by commercial releases and more by things I've seen live or heard in seminar but the Neue Bilder disc by New Music Concerts/Robert Aitken is a solid collection of his instrumental work. I'm putting on the Like a Ragged Flock album now (for flute [Ellen Waterman] and electronics).

Cool, thanks, I've added it to my list.

I've got "Kraanerg", Sinfonieorchester Basel, sounds kind of muffled to me.

The Drury recording is the first 'with restored analog tape' according to Mode, so you may want to try that one.

Well, yes, I got this one cheap secondhand, the previous owner probably got rid of it for that very reason.

the original Marius Constant 'Kraanerg' on Erato is definitely incredible - http://inconstantsol.blogspot.com/2016/08/iannis-xenakis-kraanerg-erato-1968-69.html

haven't heard the one Tom posted, but the 1989 Roger Woodward is also pretty fuzzy. The Drury (and I also suspect the Constant) directly injects the original tape into the mix instead of going for a room recording, so if you've got the Drury or the original you are well set

this is in the lineage of hyper-orchestra concrete where the tape parts are still somewhat recognizably derived from orchestral / acoustic sources (Varèse's original 1954 GRM version of 'Déserts', Berio's 'Differences', the orchestral version of Stockhausen's 'Hymnen', many others) - the blend between the live sounds and the tape part is key. and those previous pieces are more episodic / have more separation between live and tape, Xenakis really goes for the blend, and for duration. and volume, and violence. and I get the impression that the tape part frequently leads the scoring, where the orchestral scoring is following the result of the wild transformations on the tape. Which is where I get seriously on board, he just floors it from here

There's a few minutes of Graeme Murphy's well-received 1988 choreography on YouTube. I think I get how it doesn't drive into either of the opposite ditches of direct coupling to the music on the one hand, or full ignorance of it on the other, but rather runs in parallel using related processes. Staging pays homage to the Vasarely involvement at the premiere too.

looking at Harley's pdf and the youtube lecture he gave on 'Kraanerg' trying to figure out the workflow between tape and score

evidently because it wasn't going to be the kind of music in which a piano reduction was possible, budgeting included a full orchestra studio recording so they could have a tape to rehearse to -- and that's the original 2LP Erato. the tape parts follow the orchestral parts. no idea if the tape parts were derived from the same studio recording sessions. it sure sounds close though. Harley also notes the interdependence of the instrumental writing being the result of him cutting and pasting / transforming elements of contemporary pieces, inverting / reversing / altering tempo -- i.e. things very close to what's being done to the tape

Week 9

Nomos gamma, 1967–8
Nuits, 3 S, 3 A, 3 T, 3 B, 1967–8
Synaphaï, pf, orch, 1969
Anaktoria, cl, bn, hn, str qt, db, 1969

Running late, I'm afraid…

I encourage people to jump in with whatever pieces are up for the current week rather than try to catch up on past weeks, unless there is something you really want to go back to.

I definitely want to go back to Kraneerg, though! Maybe tonight, and with the proviso that I won't have anything even remotely intelligent to add.

Wow the percussion on Nomos gamma. Lots of energy and intensity there. Will come back and listen more carefully but made a definite first impression, even on the surface level.

Nuits is my favourite of the choral works so far. Clear and effective hocketing/call and response between male and female voices; maintains rhythmic energy and some timbral rawness without being harsh.

Belatedly re-listened to Kraanerg anyway. I don't have much to add, but I will say this: it's an admirable work, a brilliant work, an emblematic work, but I'm not sure I enjoy listening to it all that much. Its episodic structure coupled with its titanic length leave me a bit cold by 6th or 7th tape entrance, and I can't help but feel like I'd get more out of it with the accompanying choreography, even though I have little to no appetence for ballet in general. As ever, the theory behind the 'accomplished action' is quite fascinating, and the Ottawa premiere must have been genuinely life-altering back in 1969, yet still I drift off…

Nuits is indeed wonderful and the choral work of his I've listened to the most.

Synaphaï: really enjoying how the frantic piano gets interrupted by blasts of brass but wishing it went on longer, I find

Reading more on Nuits, it's fascinating - it was dedicated to political prisoners, is in part a study of vocal timbre, and was apparently important to participants in the May-June 1968 French protests? Also the way glissandi and quarter-tones are used is really interesting. I like how the barking and wailing breaks into that melodic motif about halfway through.

Which performance(s) are you listening to? Nuits has been much better served on disc than his other choral works, which testifies to its strengths.

Listening to Nuits with the chart on p. 54 of the Harley book is really helpful.

xp I was listening to the version on As Dreams by the Norwegian Soloists' Choir and just now to a Youtube stream of the Danish National Radio Choir from Pupils of Messiaen.

Anaktoria is decidedly different from everything we've listened to since the first week. I don't hear any extended techniques or timbral or textural investigation - it seems totally built around melodic motives that develop and are layered in counterpoint. There's still an interest in dynamics and density of texture that gives the work a clear shape, of course, but it recalls early 20th century music a bit more than most of what we've been listening to. Would be interested to go back and break down the pitch sets he's using. It's a relatively slight piece but a good one.

FYI I added both versions of Nuits that Sund4r mentioned to the Spotify playlist, if you mention a particular recording of a piece and it's on Spotify I'll add that, otherwise I'm just picking randomly based on if I recognize any of the performers/ensembles/conductors.

Also I'm way behind, so I might jump ahead to the current week instead of going back and listening to a ballet for tape noise? (I'll listen to that eventually, or at least bits of it, to see what it's like)

Yeah, I encourage jumping ahead to the current week (itself almost over!)

I hadn't heard Nomos gamma before. As with its older sibling, Terretektorh, which also calls for the musicians (98 this time) to be scattered throughout the audience, I wish I could experience it in a live setting. The percussion section is definitely the star of the show here, working its polyphonic magic in a manner that foreshadows Pléïades (1978).

Nuits is a tour-de-force and greatly benefits from Xenakis's liberal use of glissandi, which recalls his signature string sound. Much of it comes across as extraordinarily expressive keening, with some more extended vocal techniques thrown in for good measure, very much dans l'air du temps yet no less effective today.

Synaphaï is a harder sell because, on average, Xenakis's piano writing doesn't do much for me, and this piece is no exception. For once, the clatter grates (this is totally my problem, though…).

Anaktoria is indeed more conservative in its idiom, which is interesting in its own right, but I'm not sure he gets that much out of the melodic material here. I find it puzzling that Harley called it 'perhaps his most extreme sonic exploration up to that point' (Xenakis: His Life in Music).

Were you listening to the version on Spotify from the Milano Music Festival, Vol. 2 album? That's what I listened to as well but after reading Harley's description and this, I looked for another recording. Now I'm listening to one from Música Clássica Para Sopros and it's a very different piece. I'm pretty sure the one on the other album is actually Octandres by Varèse but has been mislabelled.

Clarinet multiphonics and on-the-bridge bowings are great on this.

I'm pretty sure the one on the other album is actually Octandres by Varèse but has been mislabelled.

That certainly explains the extreme difference in track durations! Anaktoria is on the Milano Musica album as well, the tracks have been shuffled up, and the correct order is apparently

Phlegra
Octandres
Mediterraneo
Anaktoria
Dhipli Zyia
Waarg

-- so that Anaktoria is actually track 4, the one tagged Waarg.

Thanks, that explains everything.

Off to a slightly late start but:

Week 10
Persephassa, 6 perc, 1969
Hibiki Hana Ma, 12-track, 1969–70

This should be about 42m, so slightly short but we've got some epics coming up.

There is also apparently a version of Persephassa for solo percussion and electronics, which I assume was created later? I'm not actually a big fan of 20th century percussion ensemble stuff (ironically, since I'm a drummer) but this is pretty alright so far. It's almost more melodic than some of his previous works for traditionally pitched instruments.

I'm reading that Hibiki Hana Ma was composed using UPIC in 1970, but then reading that UPIC wasn't invented until 1977. I guess if anybody could have invented time travel, ol' Iannis could have.

There are a lot of interesting and appealing moments in Persephassa but I'm not sure if I'm sold on the composition as a whole. Reading Harley, it was written for the six players to be arranged in a hexagon around the audience, which would have made it very hard to actually co-ordinate all the complex rhythms. Tom, are you able to pick out the rhythmic canons and layered tempi?

Hibiki Hana Ma: listening to the version on the 97 Electronic Music CD. Apparently this was written for the Osaka Exposition in 1970. The liner notes are a little baffling: they say all the sounds are derived from instrumental samples, which is believable, but also that the sound sources are never made unrecognizable, which is less so imo. I enjoy the piece with its timbral and dynamic range and movement across the soundstage, but much of this sounds like various kinds of noise!

here's my 2002 village voice review of the persepolis + 8 remixes cd:
https://www.villagevoice.com/2002/11/05/math-destruction/

wrangles with some ideas abt form, convention and homage per the darmstadt era -- or ruins of same maybe

^ seems an uncharitable perspective on "new music"/"art music," but maybe not entirely baseless-- bringing to mind the essay by Babbitt about how some music was meant to be composed and studied, but not necessarily heard or performed live. (Interesting take considering Persepolis was designed only to be heard "live" in a very particular setting, and also considering some of the performing demands of say Persephassa and its hexagon of performers.)

Good piece, mark. 'Running out of language' is exactly what I want a work of art to do to me, however, so much of what you find off-putting about the Modernist (Romantic neo-sublime) aesthetic (unless I misunderstand you) is the very reason I listen to music – to experience the illusion of being ephemerally freed from language, over and over again. It seems to me that works of art that take the path of least resistance to language better lend themselves to commentary, so critics are quite grateful for such verbal crutches when they arise… but I am not a music critic and part of my enjoyment stems from knowing I don't have to say anything about music at all! (This is the blind spot of these listening series, incidentally – oftentimes I'd rather just listen and remain mute, but that would break the undertaking's spirit of camaraderie.)

the essay by Babbitt about how some music was meant to be composed and studied, but not necessarily heard or performed live

If you mean "The Composer As Specialist" ("Who Cares If You Listen?"), this seems like a misreading. Babbitt's point was that it is fine, and even desirable, for composers of "'serious', 'advanced' contemporary music" to write just for a niche audience of other highly trained specialists since the music requires so much knowledge and training (or at least "experience") and effort to appreciate that it is not meant for the general public, in the same way that academic conferences on theoretical physics are meant for other specialists - but that pursuing this work in an academic niche is necessary in both cases for the sake of the evolution and progress of the discipline. I don't see anything that indicates that he didn't think the music had to be heard or performed - if anything, he advocated the use of electronic means to precisely reproduce the complex compositions better than human performers could (or would) in some cases. As per the quote at the top of the thread, Xenakis's views on the purpose of music and how an audience should relate to it were fundamentally different from Babbitt's, however, and, as we've seen, many of these pieces were written for large public events.

But if Babbitt did write something that advocated for music that lives just on paper, I'd be interested to read that.

(more of a misremembering than a misreading, but yes, that one)

OK, Harley's description of Hibiki-Hana-ma is more useful and makes more sense than the liner notes:

Hibiki-Hana-Ma (“reverberation-flower-interval”) is just under eighteen min- utes in length and was originally composed for twelve tracks, later mixed down to eight for concert diffusion. The music was recorded and assembled at the electronic music studio of Japan Broadcasting Corporation (NHK) in Tokyo. Xenakis had access to an orchestra there, and much of the material comes from orchestral sonorities (typical textures from existing scores with emphasis on strings, particu- larly glissandi and natural harmonics). To this he added the Japanese plucked biwa and some percussion sounds. As in the tape part of Kraanerg, there are varying degrees of studio manipulation of the instrumental sounds, from virtually none to so much that the original sources are unrecognizable. There is a much wider range of sounds presented in Hibiki-Hana-Ma than in the earlier ballet, which is under- standable considering that the tape is the only sound source. The possibility of deploying up to twelve channels enabled Xenakis to build up layers and complex superpositions of sonorities.

The music is put together from blocks of material spliced into the different channels, in a similar process to Kraanerg, extended from three or four layers to twelve. There are many sudden shifts of sonority, density, and intensity, and various + layers are brusquely cut in or out. Major articulation points serve to loosely divide
the piece into four sections. The first, lasting up to the 3'00" mark, is built from a low, booming, undulatory sonority over which orchestral string sounds are layered, primarily built from glissandi of different speeds, directions, and densities. A sweep up to a sustained high-register cluster signals the start of the second section, which introduces a layer of tinkling bells, stochastic clouds of whips and pizzicati, and much else. A sudden drop in dynamic level and number of layers at 6'32" signals a new section, although it features successions of a wide range of sonorities, most of which were heard in the previous section. The orchestral winds are introduced, in both sustained sonorities and glissando textures reminiscent of similar passsages in Nomos gamma and Kraanerg. At 11'07", another sudden drop in intensity/density signals the final section. This is the longest and most sustained of the four, introducing various noise-based sonorities of both the sliding and fixed-band types. These continue to the piece’s end, layered with previously introduced sounds. The impact of hearing this wide range of sonorities, both sustained and percussive, being projected through a large, spatialized sound system would surely have been powerful.
Hibiki-Hana-Ma (“reverberation-flower-interval”) is just under eighteen min- utes in length and was originally composed for twelve tracks, later mixed down to eight for concert diffusion. The music was recorded and assembled at the electronic music studio of Japan Broadcasting Corporation (NHK) in Tokyo. Xenakis had access to an orchestra there, and much of the material comes from orchestral sonorities (typical textures from existing scores with emphasis on strings, particu- larly glissandi and natural harmonics). To this he added the Japanese plucked biwa and some percussion sounds. As in the tape part of Kraanerg, there are varying degrees of studio manipulation of the instrumental sounds, from virtually none to so much that the original sources are unrecognizable. There is a much wider range of sounds presented in Hibiki-Hana-Ma than in the earlier ballet, which is under- standable considering that the tape is the only sound source. The possibility of deploying up to twelve channels enabled Xenakis to build up layers and complex superpositions of sonorities.

The music is put together from blocks of material spliced into the different channels, in a similar process to Kraanerg, extended from three or four layers to
+ twelve. There are many sudden shifts of sonority, density, and intensity, and various + layers are brusquely cut in or out. Major articulation points serve to loosely divide
the piece into four sections. The first, lasting up to the 3'00" mark, is built from a low, booming, undulatory sonority over which orchestral string sounds are layered, primarily built from glissandi of different speeds, directions, and densities. A sweep up to a sustained high-register cluster signals the start of the second section, which introduces a layer of tinkling bells, stochastic clouds of whips and pizzicati, and much else. A sudden drop in dynamic level and number of layers at 6'32" signals a new section, although it features successions of a wide range of sonorities, most of which were heard in the previous section. The orchestral winds are introduced, in both sustained sonorities and glissando textures reminiscent of similar passsages in Nomos gamma and Kraanerg. At 11'07", another sudden drop in intensity/density signals the final section. This is the longest and most sustained of the four, introducing various noise-based sonorities of both the sliding and fixed-band types. These continue to the piece’s end, layered with previously introduced sounds. The impact of hearing this wide range of sonorities, both sustained and percussive, being projected through a large, spatialized sound system would surely have been powerful.

Sorry for the double-paste

As per the quote at the top of the thread, Xenakis's views on the purpose of music and how an audience should relate to it were fundamentally different from Babbitt's

"Without a special training being necessary" seems U&K (so I'm not sure understanding the mathematics behind his compositional method - which I freely admit I don't - is expected of the listener or meant to be integral to the listening experience)

as someone who owns and has ploughed through formalized music (and has a degree in maths and philosophy lol) i think the answer has to be no

except to say it's kind of built into the idea of stochastics that no one can apprehend the many micro-elements individually (and nor do you need to grasp and study the effects on masse)

i mean it's not actual bullshit the wa it sometimes is in stockhausen and la monte young

good review of that crazy Asphodel remix edition of Persepolis. it had an upstart feel coming at a time of peak exhaustion for remix albums -- even though Naut and Karkowski's curation felt great, it had the same whiplash effect most projects like that have. going back to it for the first time in 20 years last week, I was more able to enjoy it as a time capsule, hearing tiny flickers of the source material remade totally in each composer's style, but it still required absolutely all of my attention. (Probably a good thing Volume 2 never panned out, but it was fascinating at least to hear the multitracks when they made the rounds back then)

I've only heard the original Philips vinyl Xenakis mix once, which breaks the piece into two sides and omits a bit of the piece's middle. The Fractal CD's silver cover is modelled on the original Philips vinyl cover, with João Rafael's mix in 2000. I hear the idea of that one was to match the original vinyl release as closely as possible, while staying complete, still hoping to compare (if anyone's got a good transfer of this, help me out)

The Daniel Teruggi mix on Disc 1 of the Asphodel imported the 48k masters at 44.1k, so the Asphodel version is a half-step slow. This is deal-breaking for some, but one of the pleasures of listening to this on vinyl is taking it -16% down.

The Daniel Teige mix on the 2CD Editions RZ comp around the same time is notably different -- slower fade in, mammoth modern reverb, really hovers, totally epic. My favorite for a while, but definitely an interpretation.

The Martin Wurmnest mix on Karlrecords a few years ago really gets precise and vivid with the EQs. The panning & distinction between the layers is more chiseled. Totally great! Rashaad Becker mastered all 56 minutes onto one vinyl disc, but I burned the FLACs from bandcamp.

Ooh that's good stuff, mark, though, of course, in 2020 we all know Xenakis lost an eye fighting the bloody British not the Nazis.

mark, I seem to recall you linking to a typically stimulating piece on so-called ‘extreme’ metal in which you also approach the genre from the problem of verbal congruence, i.e. which descriptors best match the sounds under discussion, how quickly criticism exhausts its designated lexical well, and what this tells us about the music ‘itself’. Have you explored these issues from a broader and more abstract theoretical point of view in any of your other essays? If so, I’d be very curious to read them.

...but...but...isn't <i>Persepolis</i> for later, this is <i>Persephassa</i> week! Ah ok then, good discussion started is well continued, go on plz :)

I'm just here to say that I've been fortunate to experience <i>Persephassa</i> live in hexagon, so to speak. I don't know how they did the coordination of the rhythms, and I cannot speak to the overall composition and organization, but I do know that towards the end, when the drumrolls were circled and bounced around the perimeter and across the diameter like hot speedy fire balloons, the thrill was as visceral and far from cerebral as any I have experienced in music.

Like that hoary Elgar quote of "I've got a tune that'll knock'em flat" for the hope & glory thing, I cannot listen to the end here without imagining Xenakis rubbing his hands going "hah this will put the ph3ar of Zeus into'em". I don't get much of this feeling from any recording I've tried, though. If it is played, go, I guess is my message.