U.S. Supreme Court: Post-Ginsburg Edition

Don't they usually say 'the constitution is not a suicide pact' or something?

would be something if people could be tested for their ability to uphold the law and practise it. So one could flush out all the bad pseudo judge types that have been impsed on people since nobody's managed to take out mitch yet.
peole with no ability being in roles for life just seems a little unjust, like.

It's the old slippery slope argument. If you let the government even once impose minor limits on the number of people allowed to congregate in a religious gathering during a deadly pandemic that spreads through human proximity, then they're going to want to do it during every deadly airborne pandemic.

The health care workers who will have to deal with the inevitable results of this stupendous idiocy would like to have a word with Justice Gorsuch.

Indeed. I'm immunocompromised, my husband works in an ED, and already one of the biggest communities they served during the course of that pandemic was an Orthodox Jewish community based in Jersey. They're already rationing machines, as well as gowns and other PPE.

As far as I'm concerned, governors should defy the SC. Public health takes priority over the worship of some mythical God, particularly since that worship doesn't need to take place in a specific place to be legitimate.

That, actually, is what pisses me off the most about this. If God is everywhere, if God is a living part of one's experience on this planet, then it doesn't make sense that one would need to visit a church to worship that God. Really puts the lie to the idea that religions aren't mind control mechanisms.

even my Fundie church preached that people made a church, not a building. I think it has more to do with people wanting more food at the potluck and not worship whatsoever

I'm actually totally serious, though— governors should defy these rulings.

You’re right, the rule of law is stupid

Every time the governors change the states should just revisit what laws actually count

Oh I dunno I feel like a good nullification crisis could really liven things up around here

THE RULE OF LAW IS GETTING PEOPLE FUCKING KILLED

Fuck your rule of law. Ridiculous fealty to absolute batshit rulings should be looked down upon by anyone with a conscience.

Oh I didn’t understand you before thanks for shouting

Please explain to me why public health shouldn't overrule this precious "rule of law" in this case?

Does your moral purity score ever dip below 100%? It’s really impressive

Tombot slavery was legal once too, laws don't deserve unquestioning fealty

You're the one who always harps on about the rule of law, Tombot. That's some moral purity BS if I've ever seen it.

even if they disagree it's gonna be tough for governors to really do anything about this

Selective nullification by governors is a stupid and incredibly shortsighted precedent for solving this problem

I'll be so happy that the rule of law is still in place when we hit 1 million deaths because a bunch of wackjobs can't go a few more months of not worshipping their stupid skydad

So what's your solution?

I believe in the rule of law, and slippery slopes, and yet....this ruling will literally lead to the pandemic getting further out of control.

problem is those violating the ordinance were already feeling empowered to do so prior to the SCOTUS ruling, how easy would it be to get anybody to comply now even if they defy.

fuck it all really

Selection nullification of the separation between church and state is a slippery slope that allows religious institutions to pick and choose the rules they want to follow and, potentially, government institutions to pick and choose what they consider religious institutions.

At the same time, the people that want to go to church so badly and give the virus to each other are likely the same people that were never going to follow any mitigation efforts anyway, so if that's how they want to play it, fine with me. There is no vaccine for stupid.

seems kinda arbitrary that kids and teachers can attend school every day but kids and parents can’t go to church once a week

they both fulfill important community functions

(nb i have not read the ruling)

(nb in my ideal world everyone would be paid to stay home, period)

Everything about the approach to this virus has been pretty arbitrary and ad hoc, a hodgepodge of science, anti-science, guesswork, second guesswork ...

At the same time, the people that want to go to church so badly and give the virus to each other are likely the same people that were never going to follow any mitigation efforts anyway, so if that's how they want to play it, fine with me. There is no vaccine for stupid.

The ruling is a monstrosity that Sotomayor and (ye gods) Roberts correctly condemned, but Josh is otm. I knew this Court would rule this way, and I've gotten to the point where I say, "What's a few more thousand deaths?"

i am in favor of ignoring what the supreme court says but as a practical matter, governors can defy all they want, anyone charged with violating the order knows they automatically win in court, even if cops were to come and lock their synagogue or whatever it would be a very very temporary condition. so you're talking about a symbolic gesture that will have absolutely no effect. it's all really arbitrary and nonsensical anyway, you can go to work at a smithfield plant and die because you'd starve if you didn't go to work, the same governors are encouraging people to go to restaurants and eating at them themselves. the governor of colorado told people to stay home for thanksgiving, then got on a plane to see family in another state. we are fucked for 10,000 reasons other than the supreme court. i don't have the energy to get mad at this, i'm tapped out tbh.

Tracer, then clubs and bars should be able to be open, too. They serve important community functions.

bars are open! clubs not so much that’s true. no good answer for you i guess!

Bars are not open, really, where I am.

operation Pelican Brief? xp

i feel like if they can do a “covid safe” service they should be able to. like school. no singing obv. space people out in the pews. communion wafers delivered by robot probably not feasible. hmm.

And there is a good answer: the government should be paying everyone except a strict band of essential workers to stay at home, all places where masses of people could congregate inside for any reason should be shuttered, and there should be a mandatory mask order for the whole country whenever one leaves one's home.

That's wishful thinking though, because the United States is so enamored of its own myths of exceptionalism that it won't back down even when its population is going through a massive fucking slaughter.

What seems weird to me is the argument that a religious service where 25 people are able to worship together is an undue burden on religious practices, just because they are used to having more worshipers together at one time. How about they just deal with it?

I'm actually totally serious, though— governors should defy these rulings.

Orville Faubus to thread! If we crack open this door, it will soon be kicked wide open for every governor to protect every garbage idea they think will play well to the hicks, rubes and racists.

defying the law seems like the least bad option in a sea of bad options tbh

It may seem least bad in a very shortsighted way, but it attacks the entire idea that the Supreme Court's rulings have any validity, which in turn attacks the idea that the federal government has any authority over the states. And that path leads to a madness a hundred times worse than this insane ruling.

That's kind of a funny argument to put to a Canadian tbh, but thank you for pointing out that the Cuomo restriction in question was not a full shutdown of religious services but merely a cap on attendance

pressing public health emergency more powerful than slippery slope argument imho

What seems weird to me is the argument that a religious service where 25 people are able to worship together is an undue burden on religious practices, just because they are used to having more worshipers together at one time. How about they just deal with it?

here comes some skippable rash invective, but it's not a "religious service", it's christians*. and christians can't be christians without claiming persecution. if they weren't persecuted, they wouldn't be christians. a christian has to be persecuted. are there any non-persecuted christians? NYC and DC are the new Rome and Babylon. it would be persecution to ask them to adhere to the same safety standards that others are following, even if it means more people die, christians and non-christians alike.

here are some ideas that i have about how they could safely worship together. all of these constitute persecution to a christian:

- they could limit the amount of people in their racist hangout clubs, holding multiple services on sunday morning, sunday evening services, tuesday shitty music practice, wednesday bible studies, thursday intense study for better christians, and saturday "i have really fucking sinned this time" services. 25 people at a time, staggered at least 6 feet apart. everyone else has to fucking do this, so maybe persecuted christians could take 1% of the effort they put toward making sure they're in heaven while their enemies burn eternally, and instead direct it toward real life for just a minute

- i guess that's my main idea. they can't do it, though, chiefly because of the persecution they're dealing with on a daily basis (mostly from me) as christians, but also because the holy spirit works through direct touching, manipulation, holy magic, magical thinking, and direct psychological warfare on young children who haven't yet processed the reality of every trusted adult they know in a room speaking in a language that they are clearly making up while also claiming to tap into a higher power that can and will influence the real world and lead to enemies burning eternally.

*"evangelical white christians", specifically, because other christians definitely aren't like this

in 1000 years this supreme court will be described as one that careened off the edge because a corruptly appointed majority still held fast in their worship of ancient spirits

of course, the idea that recorded history will resemble what actually happened is the cruelest joke of all. there's an equally good possibility that in 1000 years this supreme court will be described as one that nearly careened off the edge because a corruptly appointed minority nearly brought down the persecuted christians who were fighting very real battles against ancient serpents

*"evangelical white christians"

Plenty of Catholics on the SCOTUS right now.

*"evangelical white christians", specifically, because other christians definitely aren't like this

as always, my sarcasm is at 100% while my honesty is also at 100%, which i admit is confusing for everyone but also serves as a defense mechanism

KM, I agree with you in spirit, will also say that the Orthodox and Hasidic community have been pretty...uh.... irrational in their responses to Covid. I have a friend who escaped an ultra-Orthodox family in Bkln, and she told me that five family members have died and nearly all have gotten Covid since March. She has a big family, but still-- that's wild.

All said, it's definitely evangelical Xtian ideology that drove the SC decision.

honestly, i'd hate on any religion that has actively made the world a worse place, but i try to at least hold myself to the bare minimum of standard of talking trash on where you came from. evangelical christianity is my rural missouri, except imagine if rural missouri was dominating the u.s. supreme court and it was considered impolite to say what it actually is

in the foundational, inner-circle hall of fame texts of christians and jews there are stories about the true believers being protected from the pandemic plague while all the other bad, unbelievers around them suffer greatly.

it's no surprise that they think they're above physical laws of the universe - they are literally asked to think that and made to feel inferior if they don't really feel that way.

Wow. Y'all are writing long paragraphs tonight!

No dialectics with family to distract us

I hung out outside with my parents for an hour or so, it was nice, now I'm drinking a 120 Minute IPA and getting ready to eat some food.