Poll: Bandwagonesque v. Nevermind v. Loveless

emotional vulnerability that Nirvana prompted. The aforementioned bands were definitely dudely but didn't really question the average high school boy's rules about masculinity

Thing is, hair metal bands (at least at first) dressed like girls. Poison were total drag queens with pink guitars, until they chickened out. And power ballads had emotional vulnerability up the wazoo -- especially say "Sweet Child O' Mine," and Axl was pretty girly in his own right. So I've never gotten how that was such a humongous change, either; why hadn't Poison made the average high school boy question rules about masculinity already? (Hell, Sylvester was supposedly a big fan of that band!)

no, alfred, i think the point was that listening to nirvana was a way for straight boys to be emo without getting beaten up. kinda like def leppard were before them.

xh-post

xp - what I meant by "question masculinity" was basically saying a guy can be cool and be "in touch with his feelings," as opposed to acting like a macho jock.

xxp what scott said.

yeah but the glammy hair bands were all about getting laid and chicks digging the way they looked, and some of them, especially Axl, liked to say "faggot" a lot -- Kurt wore a dress onstage and slipped things like "everyone is gay" and "rape me" into his songs that were a little more ambiguous, which isn't in itself a huge deal but there was definitely a different attitude being put forth

xpost

yet Axl also loved the Pet Shop Boys, would drive around in a limousine with the stereo blasting "Being Boring," and backstage at a show told Neil Tennant that he'd love to write with them sometime. That's just our Axl.

Just because it wasn't my experience, I still understand that Nirvana had this effect on a lot of people. Thriller was an event for me. Smells Like Teen Spirit was a big deal for another (even my) generation. It's all part of believing that you're part of the myth. I just knew too much so it couldn't affect me the same way. I don't discount its importance to the culture at large. I just deny that it's musically better than a lot of other things going on before, during, or afterwards.

yeah, plus Axl loved Elton and Freddie...guy had issues, definitely.

had issues maybe, but if g'n'r are one of the most traditionally macho bands i can think of.

xp Axl lived in LA. I think he loved these people because they were famous.

don't know where i was going with that. scratch the 'if.'

xp I was always kinda confused by the way the hair metal bands dressed. Their songs showed such little respect for women, I couldn't understand why they were dressing like them.

yet Axl also loved the Pet Shop Boys, would drive around in a limousine with the stereo blasting "Being Boring," and backstage at a show told Neil Tennant that he'd love to write with them sometime. That's just our Axl.

My favorite Nirvana moment: When Dave Grohl screamed over-and-over into the mike, at the end of Nirvana's ferocious set at the MTV Music Awards, "Hi, Axl! Hey, Axl! Hi, Axl!" Don't know why his juvenile taunting made such an impression on the 22 year old me, but it did (maybe because I wanted to see a GnR/Nirvana fistfight on the VMA stage).

Apropos of nothing, obv.

king's x were on mtv?

i remember seeing the video for "Black Flag" a lot between airings of "Evenflow" and "Come As You Are," believe it or not.

Kurt wore a dress onstage

A lot more heavyhandedly/grandstandingly than Poison wore their frocks and makeup in 1987, at least to my eyes. He looked like he was trying to make a point or something. They looked like they were doing it because it was fun, and because it felt good.

king's x were on mtv?

"Over My Head" was on a lot, in 1989/90. (And Pinnick was a gay black Christian, right? Not sure whether he was closeted then or not, though.)

Axl also a major George Michael fan back then, btw.

Also don't remotely understand how Axl could be seen as "traditionally macho." He sang like a girl, danced like a girl, wrote love poems like a girl.

so you're asking why millions of teenagers responded to heavyhanded grandstanding gestures towards questioning gender roles better than a bunch of effeminate but ultimately macho-minded peacocking?

yeah, kurt in the wedding dress on headbangers ball was just dumb. like he thought it was a big deal to do it. it wasn't even funny. i mean, by then, even my brother had been wearing dresses on stage for years. maybe his fans thought it was radical though. again, the age thing.

...and apparently Axl used to get called "faggot" himself plenty back in Lafeyette, Indiana for liking Devo and the Sex Pistols etc. so much. (So yeah, he had issues. No argument there.)

I agree that it seems lame now and it seemed lame to me then, too. I'm just saying, I knew straight guys who'd wear dresses to school as a stunt or a way to seem 'different' after that. xpost

axl and kurt had a lot in common.

mbv FTW.

axl and kurt had a lot in common.

But still seemed to hate each other in the early 90s.

kurt just got the punk thing wrong, really. and so did axl. they didn't know how to do it right.

i was nine years old when kurt offed himself btw. this may be why i don't have much feeling on the "cultural impact" of nirvana. i liked nirvana & pearl jam at the same time i liked ace of base & alanis.

kurt:us punk::axl:uk punk

xxxp Why would I say teenagers didn't respond to Poison, GnR, etc, when several million clearly did (and at least as many girls as boys, fwiw)?

I mean they responded to it AS a gender role/envelope-pushing thing when they didn't w/ Poison, which you kept wondering aloud about

kurt and axl both wanted to be punk as fuck AND wildly popular. which will fuck you up in a big way.

having cake + eating it too.

http://www.kurtcobainnews.com/rolling_stones_kurt_cobain_nirvana_cover.jpg

get it, we are businessmen now. no, really, we are. but....no, we aren't, but...oh ironing generation you've got me all bugaboo.

http://images.wolfgangsvault.com/images/catalog/detail/RS674-RS.jpg

still can't believe butt-head lost to beavis!

"Liz Phair: Babe in Boyland"

Dr. Dre > Meat Loaf seems like an odd winner/loser pairing.

Cypress Hill > Suede is my personal fave

seriously Cypress Hill/Suede what? I think I bought that issue ... I forget what the criteria were lofting beavis into the winner's circle.

Oh, come on. Beavis so >>>>>>>>>>>> Butt head.

yeah totally, that's the soundest decision in that whole thing

"Janet Jackson >>> Michael Bolton" = Rumble in the Jungle type shit here.

Janet would tear that apart that clown limb from limb.

Eighteen years later, this song still makes me smile:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjMQk42pTL0

(From a 1994 concert).

This thread was almost good, and of course it has to turn into yet another argument about Nirvana's impact.. It's sooooo tired..

Great video of "The Concept" btw. I think I made the right choice.

Every discussion on "Bandwagonesque" here seemed to be of the "It was the first album we listened to together"

but I do have to say...

yep: It was the first album we listened to together

Particularly as she did say the line about not doing drugs but does the pill, and had never heard the song before.

Oh yeah.. the Beavis And Butthead thing was that it was voted for both "Best TV Show" and "Worst TV Show"

Beavis has a bit more depth.. He's the more emo of the 2. Butthead was a bit more sure of himself.

I don't get what showing Nirvana's RS covers is supposed to prove about anything.. That they weren't punk? Who cares.

I was 19 when all these albums came out, and I was a rabid fan of all three bands prior to these releases.

At the time, I would have rated Nevermind first. I bet there were times where Bandwagonesque took first. I had discovered Big Star the year before, and then in early 91, Ryko put out Sister Lovers, Big Star Live, and Chris Bell's I Am The Cosmos. Oh, and a power pop friend had turned me onto Badfinger. So I was soaked in Big Star and Badfinger, and TFC came along. That was revelatory. New bands making that kind of wistful, sparkly power pop, with a fuzzy edge.

I dug Loveless, but my love for it blossomed over the years. I listen to it way more these days then I did back then. And Bandwagonesque was eventually eclipsed by Grand Prix and Songs From Northern Britain. SFNB is one of my all-time favorite albums.

Yeah, it's curious to see Bandwagonesque competing against the critical and commercial high water marks of these other bands' career when it is not even close to being the best TFC album.

Depends on where you're coming from. I agree that they got a lot better later on. But there are also those who prefer their "dirtier" early sound to the cleaner powerpop sound of "Grand Prix" and "Songs From Northern Britain".