Kylie Minogue: Classic or Dud?

clearly thousands of people don't agree with that statement

also, I don't believe anyone deserves to be dismissed as "some fucking nobody," but even if I did, the hosts of a major podcast with huge listenership certainly wouldn't fit that description

it's all a game, now you're kind of notorious, try the hat on, have fun! mass media does not equate to a real relationship with a person

that's my two cents but good luck

I don't fucking want to be notorious, that is the literal opposite of what I want

You appear to be reacting to someone on a message board telling you that unnamed people disagreed with your review, on a podcast that you have not listened to; that is not anyone "calling [anyone] out", let alone anything that means you shoudl reconsider your opinion about a pop record, and a long way from anything to apologise about. To whom? For what?

it's all a game, now you're kind of notorious, try the hat on, have fun! mass media does not equate to a real relationship with a person

Exactly. You're a writer; you share your thoughts with strangers. When one of them objects, your first response should be, "Well, who the fuck are you? And who asked you?"

that is not anyone "calling (anyone) out", let alone anything that means you shoudl reconsider your opinion about a pop record, and a long way from anything to apologise about. To whom? For what?

― @oneposter (💹) (sic), Wednesday, November 18, 2020 5:04 PM (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

the podcast interviews figures like Ronan Farrow and Kimberlé Crenshaw, which suggests that it might be that, but I'm afraid to listen

Pod Save Music Criticism

I just skimmed thru it; the Pitchfork/Kylie discussion begins at 1:28.30. The discussion is really dumb, but katherine - I suggest you don't listen.

and now it's there forever

the episode description:

Ira, Louis, and Aida discuss the conservative fervor over Harry Styles wearing a dress on the cover of Vogue, the COVID season of The Bachelorette, Billie Eilish and Lil Nas X’s new videos, Twitter’s new “Fleets” feature, the Grammys, Pitchfork’s Kylie Minogue review, Obama’s A Promised Land playlist, and more. Plus, Rachel Bloom joins to discuss depicting mental health on television and her new memoir I Want to Be Where the Normal People Are.

Sounds like people riffing on pop culture that they have had exactly zero time to give any thought to, and are reacting in the moment to fill minutes.

That pretty much sums it up. Now they're going in on Obama for putting Beyoncé's "Halo" on his playlist ("real Beyoncé fans don't fuck with it... she doesn't even perform it anymore!")

this is inane shit

and now it's there forever

nobody is going to be listening to it later than this week, and the hosts have probably forgotten whatever they said already.

tbh i enjoyed Ira's MTV News podcast with Doreen St. Felix but Louis Virtel is dumb as nails so i'm not shocked by any of this (still disappointed obv)

the hosts may have forgotten it but I'll remember it for the rest of my life, and the people who listened may not remember the specifics but will remember that they dislike me

i enjoy podcasts as much as the next person but i hope that if the podcast bubble bursts, that Crooked Media goes down with it - few things would make me happier tbh

the people who listened may not remember the specifics but will remember that they dislike me

If you say so. But that brings us back to who gives a shit? If they can be made to dislike you (which I doubt) so easily, they can be made to like you just as easily. Without ever remembering that they once disliked you. These are people with the brains of parakeets.

the people who listened may not remember the specifics but will remember that they dislike me

Without listening, there's a 70% chance that none of the three hosts even mention your name, and just say "Pitchfork's review." If they do say your name, the number of people who remember it by the next sentence will be minimal. Of that contingent, the number who care about Kylie Minogue will be a much smaller subset. Of them, the number who give a shit at all whether someone gives an alright-not-great Kylie album an "alright, not great" review might be greater than 50%. Within that remaining chunk, the number who not only receive, but also hold onto, their opinions from some pop culture podcast hosts who have in all likelihood not listened to the album and read the review in full will be the square root of bugger all.

emphasis on "square" and "root" (rude)

Genuinely sorry you are going through this katherine, stan culture has a lot to fucking answer for. Those guys crank out a metric ton of podcast content and it will be buried in the noise in no time at all. I'm sure that's small comfort for you now, but 99% of the people who heard it have already moved on. I really wish you wouldn't second guess your opinion though, you have done nothing wrong and have nothing to apologize for.

yes, it's a well-written (and well-reasoned) review!

i like your writing katherine. you've mentioned similar issues of feeling persecuted and punched down to on this board before and i can't imagine that feels good but you're writing for public consumption and that necessarily comes with criticism of your criticism, often from people who don't know how to string together a cohesive paragraph. short of a threat that seems plausible, you have got to let that shit go or it's going to fuck with you continually and make you miserable in a way you neither deserve nor that will benefit you. you could literally walk into a plaza with a solid gold baby that shits money and say "I MADE THIS" and some asshole is going to tweet death threats at you, if for no other reason than you have a platform that they don't have. there's no winning that battle. listen to discern if there's something worth learning in the response you're getting but otherwise, fuck em.

the difference is that I don't aim to hurt people, I try to be evenhanded, I try to stick to the work, and not the individual, I don't track people down across every medium to hurt people, or track them down years after the fact, I don't tell people they're fat and ugly and disgusting (all of which I'm sure happened on the podcast), I don't spam subscribe them to hateful newsletters, I don't send death threats, and if someone was inadvertently hurt by something I said I would apologize and try my best not to do so again.

the difference is also that presumably they have plenty of people praising them to counterbalance, and I don't; the ratio at this point is maybe a handful to tens or hundreds of thousands. how does one exist under those circumstances without just never interacting with a human being again?

I don't tell people they're fat and ugly and disgusting (all of which I'm sure happened on the podcast)

It doesn't - they say you're not qualified to review the album because you're not in the right demographic. I wouldn't worry about it - sic is right, no one (half-)listening is likely to click over to Pitchfork to even see who you are.

that would seem to be an argument necessarily dependent on seeing who I am

that would seem to be an argument necessarily dependent on seeing who I am

You would think, but this is the internet, founded on and sustained by the uninformed, passionately held, fleeting opinion.

Kat, all the points you bring up are exactly why you shouldn't be validating that response by letting it effect your sense of self or make you feel less inclined to produce. best revenge is to lead by example.

I don't tell people they're fat and ugly and disgusting (all of which I'm sure happened on the podcast)

Obv there's a lot you can't help about the way your brain reacts to / amplifies perceived attacks, but if it helps to centre you rn, remind yourself that your brain also knows that this is absolutely not the case, and is something it has made up to fuck with you.

I don't actually know that, because it's been a running theme in the hate mail I've gotten, and they've tracked down pictures of me to say it on

presumably they have plenty of people praising them to counterbalance

Ira was banned from twitter during the election for changing his DN to Beto O'Rourke and tweeting "I'll send nudes if Texas goes blue". Virtel has nobody tweeting at him about the review at all, but did post this ten years ago (no likes, no replies):

Someone asked me about the new Kylie single, and I haven't heard it yet. It was pouty, retro, and winking, right? I pass?

— Louis Virtel (@louisvirtel) May 18, 2010

And the sole response on Crooked Media's tweet promoting the episode reads:

Fuck y'all for dogpiling on a GOOD music writer who accurately read the Kylie album as a big misfire. I've listened since ep 1, but that shit was beneath you. Act right.

we should inundate them like k-pop stans but for katherine

a running theme in the hate mail I've gotten

These stan idiots (for any fandom) should, of course, have their access to the internet removed forever, and probably their freedom to raise children. But the review is on the internet, and if they're brigading from anywhere collective, it'll be a Kylie message board or facebook group.

KATHERINE HIVE ASSEMBLE

could probably get one or two of them suspended on twitter if we put our mind to it (look at their pre-woke period tweets and find something dodgy and report)

which is something stans do

btw the hosts may have forgotten it but I'll remember it for the rest of my life,

You are insisting that the hosts said things which the one person here who has listened to it has directly assured you that they don't. For sure you shouldn't bother listening, but if possible, you also shouldn't remember something that didn't happen for the rest of your life. These are three random people chatting shit to each other about something they haven't actually engaged with, and as such inherently hold less weight and authority than the average ilx post.

(look at their pre-woke period tweets and find something dodgy and report)

we should get ira suspended for saying he'll send nudes imo

(It totally sucks that idiots write hate mail that is able to reach you, but also remember, if you can, that bothering to write hate mail to a stranger automatically makes the author's opinion beneath consideration.)

oops, put the xpost in the wrong place obv

dude I know (I hope) that's a joke but don't do that

I'm not saying anything new here, but the limit does not exist when it comes to the lows pop stans will stoop to in terms of harrassing people that say or write things they don't like about their idols. It doesn't help that occasionally these idols themselves fan the flames (I'm thinking of the Lana Del Rey / Ann Powers incident last year or when Lizzo tweeted that only musicians should be allowed to write music reviews, etc), or that for some reason Metacritic scores have come to mean almost as much as commercial chart positions to stanbases. And in some cases there's just no way of pleasing them. folklore received an 8.0 on Pitchfork and the writer still ended up getting doxxed.

I'm sorry this is happening Katherine and for what it's worth your review was fair, thorough and certainly nothing to be ashamed of.

Also, I think publications owe a duty of care to their staff in situations like this where the result of posting a review of a high-profile act is death threats towards the writer.

I'm sorry I even pointed it out. I'd just finished listening to the segment when I came over here and wrote about it, mainly because I was shocked that it even happened (also, that one "fuck y'all" twitter reply to the Crooked Media post was mine). I think Keep It has a large audience, but other people here are right that almost no listeners will hear that and then click over to Pitchfork and find out what they're going on about.

Stan culture is absolutely repulsive to me, and it only seems to be getting worse. I don't even know if there's a way to put it back in the bottle at this point, and it infuriates me.

I listened to the Keep It segment and it's even worse/worthless than I expected and the bar was low

1. v telling that Ira declines to go into detail on criticizing Scooter Braun beforehand and then immediately decides to punch down at Katherine

2. didn't even address a single point in the review other than the score

"the score is low and white women aren't allowed to listen to this album by a white woman"

lol

that one "fuck y'all" twitter reply to the Crooked Media post was mine

(suspected this but didn't want to doxx you :) )

I doubt they actually read the review.

I'm so sorry this happened katherine. I can assure you that you did nothing wrong and the people attacking you are completely out of bounds.

It’s worth remembering that even if you do everything right, some internet rando will still senselessly hate you for it. There’s no such thing as being universally liked, and that’s ok (this is what stans refuse to accept btw). Anyway, Kylie’s music has never been my cup of tea but that was a good and informative review.

have listened to the podcast (1st time ever), they mention nothing but the rating itself... I assume @katherine you are a serious pop music critic, while this podcast is some pulp, immediate blah blah blah content to listen to when jogging or cleaning, so honestly - even if one can find it amusing - this is like apples & oranges. hence do ignore this shit and keep up the good work!

and getting back to the review itself - i agree with sooo many points and arguments of katherine's review, but this won't change the fact that I'm spinning this record to death and yes, on paper it could be (and potentially is) 'worse' than roisin, jessie or dua, but its only kylie who can pull off a song with such a corny intro as supernova, making me tremble with embarrassment at the beginning, and then hijack with her delivery or chorus that im singing while writing now and leaving me breathless in the end. just like any great party that I came late to, i.e. everybody is drunk already, im thinking: what is wrong with these awful people?! and in 30 mins im sweating with the rest on the dance floor.
(plus some of these songs like 'real groove' are objectively a-mah-zing!)

this struck me during the Folklore fiasco but pop stans getting mad at pitchfork reviews will never not be mindboggling to me. and they get mad when pitchfork doesn't review their faves' records too! there's no pleasing them.

like, your faves will do just fine without p4k's validation, guys.