Songs that fool you about where the downbeat is.

what makes "get well soon" hard to follow is it's heavily syncopated and often there isn't anything on the 1

Ride of the Valkyries. I just discovered the downbeat is not where I always thought it was, and I'm guessing most other people mis-hear it as well. I was watching a Youtube video, and the conductor looked out of time until I realized....whoa. My mind is kind of blown.

I'm very curious about this, because I can't imagine it anywhere else?

Trying to unhear it the way I do and am pondering the string stabs during the main riff?

Here are two ways to hear Ride of the Valkyries, in each the downbeat is capitalized.

1 2 3 1 2 3
1) DUT dadut daaaaa daaaaa DUT dadut daaaaa daaaaa etc.

1 2 3 1 2
2) dut dadut DAAAAA daaaaa dut dadut DAAAAA daaaaa etc.

The first one is how Wagner wrote it. The second is the way I've always heard it.

I'm interested in this phenomenon, especially when you're approaching a dance rig and the first round you hear are the high hats, but because you perceive them out of time they take on an almost ska-like quality 'mm-TSSS-UH mm-TSSS-UH' until you get closer and hear the kick drum and the whole beat switches into place. Any dance producers played on this before?

"Lost In Music" always gives me a little double take, which is part of the pleasure imo - it's like 'the pocket' is so deep in this song, the pocket has a pocket of its own

dl I have "played" on this many times by accidentally lining the records up on the off-beat ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSroXhI2uZs

Ahhh, that makes sense re: Valkyries. I've always heard the 1st way but the 2nd way makes sense.

Dog latin - same.

I don't really get the Sister Sledge thing because the beat is so strong. But I have a hard time hearing the intro to Rufus & Chaka 'Tell Me Something Good' correctly, with the wah wah keys on the downbeat and the bass on the upbeat.

catches me off guard every time it finally "snaps into place" on this one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxZvikbX7RA

I must admit, when I listen to Valkyries, I only hear it Wagner's way-- the chords are also changing on the downbeat

That said, had you asked me to sit down at the piano and play it, prior to "just now", when I rewatched/relistened, I would've absolutely weighted it (and had the chords change) as you've described in your 2nd example, B'wana Beast. Interesting

Also wild to hear how John Williams's whole "heroic" mode contains all these orchestral devices

"No Reply At All" doesn't belong on this thread but having seen "Keep It Dark" mentioned here I relistened to both it the former and, well, the album Abacab slaps

*both it and the former

I think Phil Collins must've been fond of this downbeat trick, because the verses in "Dance on a Volcano" do a similar thing.

I have two of these:

Amazing Journey by The Who - The opening always fools me that the downbeat is on the first chord of each pair, when in fact it is the second chord (one and a half beats later). Daltrey also starts singing on the downbeat, but it doesn't become clear to me until the drums come in. Maybe the backwards feedback over the intro is also misleading.

Mechanical World by Spirit - I only figured out tonight that the downbeat in the verses is on the third hi-hat hit, not the first, which was misleading me completely. The whole song is in straight 4/4 if you count it properly!

Intro to SOS by Abba. Becomes apparent after a while that it starts on 2 but it's still confusing and beautiful

Theo's "Bubbles", too

When the drums come in on this one I'm always like "wait a second...":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrWTxRgd4Wk

re: "Lost in Music" - great example!
also:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-GcL1Cd5b4

maybe it's because in places it seems like it's a 6/4 measure or the like (extra beats) rather than a normal 4/4.

Albert, is that because the opening fill is a pickup (it starts on three)?

re: opening fills that throw you, David Sylvian has got at least two examples ready - maybe a result of editing?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFMa-m-6A3Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZjil5x3gaQ

i'm still a bit confused about the Valkyries thing?

oh wait... forget it, i hear it now!

Intro to SOS by Abba. Becomes apparent after a while that it starts on 2 but it's still confusing and beautiful

Is this song like "SOS" in that way, starting on the 2?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA4a-zuSnQM

almost sounds like the first strum didn't make it into the recording

Yes! Considered that

The intro to SOS feels like it begins on the 2, but if you're going to count straight fours until the vocal comes in right after the 1, then it starts on the 3! Or you could say that the intro drops a beat before the vocal comes in.

There is a great Switched on Pop episode about Charlie Puth's "Boy" that talks about its "downbeat deception." Listen to the first 10 minutes of this:

https://switchedonpop.com/episodes/87-the-pure-pop-of-charlie-puth-carly-rae-ft-hanif-abdurraqib

Here's the song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iILJvqrAQ_w

That's a good one, although the backbeat coming in helpfully lines it up.

Just relistened to that Switched on Pop and if you go to minute 16 they also play a bunch of examples of what they dub downbeat deception:

Ismael Miranda – Recordando
The Beatles – She’s a Woman
Sharon Jones & The Dap Kings – Nobody’s Baby
The Cars – Since You’re Gone
Ludwig van Beethoven – Symphony No 5 in C Minor, I

Is there a thread for rap songs with raps on the off-beat?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_QcvPwa-l0

Jane Weaver - Electric Mountain

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lcFq7Rtx0M

I've always had major trouble hearing where the 1 is on Missy Elliott's "Get Ur Freak On." Intellectually I know it's on the very first kick drum beat, but unless I force myself to count along from that point, I hear the first three counts as "pickup" and hear the 1 as falling on the actual 4 (this is if I'm counting along at the full 178 bpm as opposed to 89 bpm half-time). In other words, I hear the 1 as falling on the 6th note of the iconic tumbi riff.

(which also falls on the third kick drum hit)