Being a socialist, a radical, or an anarchist is not the same as 'bitching loudly on the internet every day'.

xps are your friends dsa members?

I don't think it matters all that much if any one person joins the DSA - for the vast majority it's going to be symbolic (especially until a chapter is large enough to organize action... and even then you're talking about outreach more than change), you're doing more 'work' volunteering at a food bank once a month.

If you attend a meeting and they're assholes, fair enough - but you don't know that until you attend one?

no, but my friends have been harassed by this specific category of extremely online irony bro

fraternities do volunteer work too, doesn't mean I want to be buddies with frat boys

blackpilled seemed to gain traction when Donald Trump won and some of the saddos that voted for him realized that he wasn't going to do a fascism. being blackpilled meant losing faith, as an alt-right guy, in the electoral process to make any real significant change, and either getting into the mindset to do a mass-shooting, or else retreat from society. people use it to describe left-wing people who have lost faith in the electoral process, and/or left-wing movements to make real significant change, but aren't looking to do a mass-shooting, though they may be looking to retreat from society. my wife calls me blackballed because of how cynical I am about politics (and because I like reading Jacques Camatte and Desert)

lol, damn autocorrect

this is veering quite close to 'all zoomers are bad people' or at the very least 'zoomers can't be trusted' imo

how much more do I have to mention the words "specific category" before it gets read

no, but my friends have been harassed by this specific category of extremely online irony bro

Are these extremely online irony bros DSA leaders? Members? Part of your local chapter?

tbh, you should not join the DSA because you're not comfortable with it and no part of this matters enough to do anything that makes you uncomfortable. But you appear to be crafting assumptions ("I'm not sure what else they'd join") based on people you don't like on Twitter.

I understand what you're getting at Katherine. It's a real thing that happens.

pardon me for making the wild assumption that people who identify as leftists might join leftist organizations

so you don't like leftists? I'm sorry it's not at all clear to me what you mean.

I’m not in the DSA or even the USA and I’m pretty familiar with these types, they come in all flavours of political identification ime but no one should be denying they exist in left circles. there is a noisy faction online that appears to be DSA affiliated. I don’t get how the doomer/blackpill thing is related but then I’m not american

how much more do I have to mention the words "specific category" before it gets read

― like, I’m eating an elephant head (katherine), Friday, November 13, 2020 3:54 PM (seven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

They might join no organization (most likely), or they might join some Trot or Maoist group or the SPUSA (doubtful, RIP) or whatever.

The DSA is over 75k members now, a scattering of people on Twitter is a terrible way to assess that membership.

i thought doomer leftists sneered at the DSA now too tbh, but i could be mistaken because there’s always the chance my perception has become distorted however slightly by the literally poisonous nightmare machine the plutes have given me to look at the outside world thru.

xp.

given that there have been frequent reports, as above, of sexual harassment, white guys talking over everyone else, etc. that it does not seem like I am near a miraculous enclave of people whose hearts are in the right place, or exist at all

Jim in Van, nice to know someone else here reads and thinks about Desert.

milo what has your dsa experience generally been like?

The idea that Katherine would be crafting assumptions about sexism in political organisations instead of recognizing sexism exists in all spheres of society is exactly why someone like Katherine might be intimidated.

this kind of denial and/or defensiveness is nagl & way too familiar

I also said upthread that it isn't about sexism, per se, it's about people whose politics are based on contempt and making fun of people for things they deem cringeworthy

(for instance, there are people like this who aren't men; maybe fewer, but definitely nowhere near none)

I was initially thrown by the use of "blackpill" as I associate it with incel nihilism, but I get that it can be expanded to cover other stuff. I am surprised that so many people are playing it like they don't understand what katherine's describing at all. Yes, there are shitty men everywhere, but there's a specific type of shitty man that appears in left-wing circles. I'd associate it with shit like the "dirtbag left".

Yes, there are shitty men everywhere, but there's a specific type of shitty man that appears in left-wing circles. I'd associate it with shit like the "dirtbag left".

otm!

Sorry Katherine for interpreting it all as sexism and not reading thoroughly.

and yes, the dirtbag left is extremely repulsive.

anything left out here (mountain west) is slim pickings, my expectations are adjusted accordingly, but like rich salt lake liberals aren't gonna work for me as pals, you know. i've brushed up against a few and blech. maybe i just want to meet some people in slc who aren't rah-rah capitalists, who might have some class consciousness. they're everywhere in all your cities but our 'alts' here are all libertarians. i work in government i'm used to not actually getting anything accomplished. i wouldn't mind just meeting every once in a while for half a year in order to plan on picking that one (1) low-hanging fruit.

who am i kidding political people are probably just as tiresome as the skin-deep small-time capitalist instagram hipsters i felt like an alien among when i was trying to dj.

t/s: shitty men in the electronic music underground vs. shitty men in leftist politics

(should also note it doesn't just extend to joining or not joining organizations; I have a few friends and one close friend, for instance, who have shown signs of being like this, and as a result I don't fully trust them and probably never will)

personal animus towards wrongthinkers is certainly a lot more accessible than meaningful solidarity in a hyper atomized society there's no question about that

(see also message boards)

omg

Not sure if I'm misreading you Simon, but what katherine describes is not simply ascribable to "personal animus towards wrongthinkers" - there are solid reasons to be wary of this sort of person (see also: sexual assault in Novara circles).

blanket suspicion of 'a sort of person' rather than case by case differentiation strikes me as unhelpful at best, dangerous at worst?

like, a certain amount of circumspection probably a good idea in any social situation, dunno why the DSA requires anything extra

milo what has your dsa experience generally been like?

Initially, with the local group established post-Bernie, it was a reading and discussion group, fine but essentially just a social group for confused people interested in the left.

Over the last couple of years it has grown into mutual aid (community garden seminars, a ‘community fridge’ mini-food bank post-COVID, etc.), an emphasis on anti-ICE actions (neighborhood walks with cards about rights like the old ACLU bust cards), couple of small fix-it ticket events (fixing bulbs out on cars). Some local candidate endorsements this time around.

The most recent Zoom talk was on toxic masculinity. I skip most of the meetings and talks because I hate Zoom, I’m fine waiting until in-person activities can resume.

I do not disbelieve bad behavior happens or that some members are assholes, but I will reiterate that you can’t dismiss the entire organization because of bad Twitter people or know that your local comprises bad people unless you go to a meeting. Short of that you’re just saying “I don’t wanna” - which is a perfectly fine reason to not do something.

I mean Trump supporters sure w/e but these are people who ostensibly give a shit about humanity

I don't agree with the principle that nobody should join DSA b/c there's a shitty type of leftist dude who might be there. I do think it's absolutely fine (and kind of necessary) for an individual to express that this type of leftist dude seriously puts them off getting involved.

xxp

Do love that this bullshit thread title/premise has been upended hy good discourse and action itt

(no sarc...)

that's fair, but surely the solution is to join and cause a fuss about the culture, that's how things improve

I'm not dismissing the entire organization, just saying that it is likely that I would regularly come into contact with at least some assholes who probably are connected to other assholes

lol you are a ho xp to imago

oh like earth xp

Not if you don't feel safe enough to do that! Or even confident enough, or hell, motivated enough.

On a completely different note, I find it weird that I've just incorporated "leftist" into my vocabulary.

xxxp

xp - given the direction this conversation has gone I have zero confidence in my "causing a fuss about the culture" doing anything but getting mocked

thanks for sharing your experience milo

serious qualms about shitty endemic behaviour should and I hope will always be taken seriously in any leftist organisation worth the name

have there been recent DSA sexism dustups? I don't hear about this stuff anymore since I quit twitter

I should say 'sexism/harrassment/assault/etc'

it’s fine to dismiss an entire org because of shit experiences esp when the reaction to raising them is this kind of thing