What are Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Flaws?

Uh it does work and is working? Where do we get that it doesn’t work in the ways and places it’s being deployed? SPD is (early) in the process of having responsibilities moved and patrol headcount cut in direct response to months of protest explicitly calling for police to be defunded and abolished.

Medicare for all has to be the best slogan.

If you don’t ask you don’t get yknow?

DTP will work best in cities where it's the most useful anyway.

^ also after being under a federal consent decree for a decade and not de-escalating (xp re SPD)

unless you have a really kickass 3-word slogan that convinces people who currently love the police that they're wrong to do so, you're going to be arguing about whatever it's called

"Fuck Tha Police" is open to bipartisan readings.

"it's not perfect, but sheesh, the reason so many people oppose isn't that it's wordsmithed in the perfect way, "

You missed the post about how when presented differently 70% of a focus group was in favor of defunding the police

i actually did see that earlier today!

i'm not talking about a context in which an idea gets to be explained in a full sentence or two for a focus group who is forced to consider the idea for a moment and then give an assessment to an authoritative figure (the focus group runner, who is always named frank luntz). (i am also not talking about 50% vs 70% approval stats from a single focus group)

i'm talking about the context that is much more common, which is DEFUND THE POLICE! or ABOLISH THE POLICE! or BLACK LIVES MATTER! or any other short slogan (the things that ideas become when they are seen and heard on mass market tv and radio).

I mean sure maybe alternative messaging won't work. But guess what, the current messaging ALREADY doesn't work.

Hi, Granny, you've now caught on to the parallel with BLM that I raised. "Defund the police" has existed for less than six months - it happened to fall in an election year when the world was ending. You have no fucking clue how well an organic slogan and movement will work after five months.

BLM was similarly organic.
Would you like to guess how attitudes toward BLM have shifted over time? Would you be surprised to find out that it wasn't a "winning slogan" until the middle of 2018?
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/06/10/upshot/black-lives-matter-attitudes.html

Yet you know exactly how every yet to be created alternative slogan will be received. Do you understand why ppl get annoyed with your arguments?

Have y'all bought a gross ton of DTP t-shirts or something??

Can we just acknowledge something might work for a population and the same thing might not work for another? Hasn't the left abandoned dumb notions of universality in favor of coalition building and intersectionality?

I know how exactly every alternative slogan will be received because the slogan isn't the problem.

Cops don't want to give up their godlike powers. It's that simple. Anything that threatens to do that will be demonized.

When you "demilitarize the police" and that doesn't poll well in a mayoral election next year because the cop union pitched a fit, you gonna change it then?

GD the quote I posted wasn't from a cop, it was from a politician sucking up to them who still got called a "cop hater" and lost his election, speaking to milo's point.

You have no earthly idea what exactly "the problem" is.
I'm done dude. This is like every discussion with you ever.

Can we just acknowledge something might work for a population and the same thing might not work for another? Hasn't the left abandoned dumb notions of universality in favor of coalition building and intersectionality?

― Van Horn Street, Wednesday, November 11, 2020 8:02 PM (forty-six seconds ago)

yes that is why i am wondering why people itt are objecting to "defund the police" and "abolish the police" as if it has been adopted by the entirety of the left, no member of which is trying any other strategy at all, and is at fault for democrats who don't support it losing elections

thank u harbl

something something Overton Window

You don't answer the census and you thinking cheating in an election is ok. Who cares what you have to say honestly.

like i genuinely do understand why it might turn off some who would be receptive otherwise, same as has been expressed by others in this thread who don't have a problem with these slogans. i'm just suspicious of the arguments of those who are against them.

I'm here saying sure new slogan might not work. But you know all. You know the future and you know the minds of millions of people. Why are you wasting your talents at a comic book Shop and a message board

you know there are other people besides milo disagreeing with you here, right?

It's 100% up to centrist democrats in more conservative states who are facing headwinds to make their case that they aren't cop haters, the onus is on them. But i don't think DTP or ATP is a very good place for them to start with.

milo relentlessly otm itt

we are on the same page almost never so i'm honestly really thrilled

they aren't starting there and no one has objected to that! it's just, like i said upthread, what are people supposed to do? stop saying it? since it works where it works

VHS go read that fucking Appeal article. starting with DTP/ATP actually helps.

and yes milo is 100% otm here, and we are on the same page more than I give him credit for tbh

I mean, we're arguing about slogans. That's what PR firms are for. The substance doesn't change.

I think defund the police hurt democrats but I think there's only so much you can do about it and I don't know if you can "blame" anyone. It's not activists' job to figure out how democrats can win elections and structure everything they do around the fear of upsetting election apple carts. Republicans successfully tied the party IN GENERAL to rioting, looting and #abolishthepolice. I believe that had an impact in some swing districts even where the particular candidate didn't support abolishing police. I mean I'm pretty sure COVID hurt Republicans with some demographics too and that doesn't mean every single one of them had a bad policy on COVID. Moving the overton window is great, but words aren't magic. Sometimes the window doesn't move, or sometimes it takes years to move. Medicare for All was not only highly popular but was the latest incarnation of a policy that has been pushed for decades. Universal healthcare was attempted in the Clinton years. Abolish the Police pretty much came out of nowhere for most voters -- it sounds extremely radical to them and it's unpopular even with Democratic voters and even with voters of color.

At the end of the day I think Democrats could have done a much better job of getting THEIR message out so that such issues weren't allowed to define them. So I don't really focus on that point.

I think defund the police hurt democrats

jesus fucking Christ this is already disproven

progressive causes are more popular than Democrats, not vice versa.

as shown in Florida's $15 minimum wage vote

VHS go read that fucking Appeal article. starting with DTP/ATP actually helps.

The article doesn't deny my suspicions that DTP/ABT doesn't help democrats in more conservative states. If anything, Max Rose's example shows that it might be a dead-end.

If you are in a true blue state, then yeah, you would be super dumb to not go all in police abolition.

Defunding the police is a city matter, not a state one, at least until some GOP legislature tries to revoke home rule from their cities over it.

Cities are where the action is on this and if moderate dems from the sticks catch flak over it, sucks to be them I guess.

lol wow VHS you really don't know how this country works, that is not at all what is happening politics-wise

(xp)

and yeah what silby said, it's a very local issue for the most part and Dem mayors have actually been terrible on this issue mostly.

fucking Ted Wheeler, don't even get me started

Pretty much what I say: the onus is on them, I understand it puts them in a harsh situation and I think it's worth thinking through what it means for them but it is still their job.

Negative slogans/policies have to be accompanied by positive actions, but sometimes that's not accomplishable in the slogan, it requires years of messaging and outreach. You cannot shoehorn in your plan to divert cop overtime funds to universal daycare in your city - too many words. You have to focus on removing the cops' power to murder and abuse and message about the upside. It won't work overnight.

Beyond that, all the potential slogans are going to be risky and negative and at least initially poorly received by upper-middle class home owners.

Many more ppl may come around and accept DTP. Sure could happen. But "cause BLM, this is definitely how this too will play out" is not a logically sound position.
I think DTP is a bad slogan and wish there was a better one. Better one still might fail. Don't see the downside in trying some out, esp given polling results that show it to turn off otherwise receptive people.

you don't have to convince everyone, just a majority of voters. why waste time appeasing?

Positive slogan…Fund Police Support Systems idk

lol sorry no

they have plenty of support already and are far less dangerous than many jobs (like pizza delivery)

are it is

Patriot act is brilliant labeling. Who wants to vote against something called that. "You're against funding support systems for police?? You monster!"

I'm not trying to win YOU over, how are y'all still not grasping that

GD, it's true that some people don't like DTP, but some people love it and it works for them. Up to politicians to adjust. It only gets complicated when you try to shove one message on a diverse population with different life experiences.

No doubt. My point is I don't think DTP will ever work on some people who nonetheless are receptive to at least some of the objectives it is shorthand for. It's worth trying out different messaging to reach them.