What are Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Flaws?

sorry that was an xp to milo who I agree with 100% here

Well except do abolish the police, don’t not abolish the police

(that guy above lost his race, btw)

and yeah what I was after was more "oh you don't like defund, how about abolish then? does defund sound better now?"

Well that’s just lying to people then

I'm OK with "defund" being the end result compromise while ofc hoping for that fabled Marxist withering away in the end

CAHOOTS for everyone (not the sex shop, sorry map)

Slogans are memes. They tend to become detached from more nuanced explanations as they float around out in the real world, so they need to work in a stand alone context. They can range from purely factual to purely emotional, but they should speak to your intended audience in an unambiguous way about an easily understood (or imagined) consequence that they find either attractive or repellent. Long history suggests that two to seven words is ideal. More than nine words and they fail as slogans.

Disarm the police - OH YOU WANT US TO BE MURDERED BY MS-13...etc.

Yeah. Fear is a potent and easily manipulated emotion. Anyone who believes MS-13 is lurking everywhere ready to pounce, but the police are like faithful guard dogs, is never going to respond positively to any appeal to defund police. They aren't the audience.

i am in favor of the government providing jobs for all so i've solved the unemployment problem

Reaction to BLM has literally nothing to do with any potential reaction to an improved version of DTP. Like that's just a shockingly bad argument to make.

i haven't read the millions of posts above, but "defund" is obviously already a compromise meant to draw attention to the role of city budgets in all of this - a means of focusing on something real and tangible that can be changed.

it's not perfect, but sheesh, the reason so many people oppose isn't that it's wordsmithed in the perfect way, but that so many people view police as a good thing. unless you have a really kickass 3-word slogan that convinces people who currently love the police that they're wrong to do so, you're going to be arguing about whatever it's called

"The cops and cop lovers control the response to any slogan you offer up - no matter how watered down,"

Lol ok nostradamus. You're talking out your ass.

Reaction to BLM has literally nothing to do with any potential reaction to an improved version of DTP.

Yes, these two slogans connected to the same protest movement in response to the same police activities are absolutely unrelated.

"it's not perfect, but sheesh, the reason so many people oppose isn't that it's wordsmithed in the perfect way, "

You missed the post about how when presented differently 70% of a focus group was in favor of defunding the police

GD maybe read the quote I posted? Even the politicians who give them more money get called "cop haters". No slogan, no action will ever be "good enough"

I mean sure maybe alternative messaging won't work. But guess what, the current messaging ALREADY doesn't work. Dismissing the idea of just trying new things out bewilders me

No slogan, no action will ever be "good enough"

Conservatism does have a built-in edge with people who only respond to stimulation of their lizard-brain. You just have to deal with that and find a way forward anyway.

You posted a quote from a cop. I already said who cares about their reactions.

Uh it does work and is working? Where do we get that it doesn’t work in the ways and places it’s being deployed? SPD is (early) in the process of having responsibilities moved and patrol headcount cut in direct response to months of protest explicitly calling for police to be defunded and abolished.

Medicare for all has to be the best slogan.

If you don’t ask you don’t get yknow?

DTP will work best in cities where it's the most useful anyway.

^ also after being under a federal consent decree for a decade and not de-escalating (xp re SPD)

unless you have a really kickass 3-word slogan that convinces people who currently love the police that they're wrong to do so, you're going to be arguing about whatever it's called

"Fuck Tha Police" is open to bipartisan readings.

"it's not perfect, but sheesh, the reason so many people oppose isn't that it's wordsmithed in the perfect way, "

You missed the post about how when presented differently 70% of a focus group was in favor of defunding the police

i actually did see that earlier today!

i'm not talking about a context in which an idea gets to be explained in a full sentence or two for a focus group who is forced to consider the idea for a moment and then give an assessment to an authoritative figure (the focus group runner, who is always named frank luntz). (i am also not talking about 50% vs 70% approval stats from a single focus group)

i'm talking about the context that is much more common, which is DEFUND THE POLICE! or ABOLISH THE POLICE! or BLACK LIVES MATTER! or any other short slogan (the things that ideas become when they are seen and heard on mass market tv and radio).

I mean sure maybe alternative messaging won't work. But guess what, the current messaging ALREADY doesn't work.

Hi, Granny, you've now caught on to the parallel with BLM that I raised. "Defund the police" has existed for less than six months - it happened to fall in an election year when the world was ending. You have no fucking clue how well an organic slogan and movement will work after five months.

BLM was similarly organic.
Would you like to guess how attitudes toward BLM have shifted over time? Would you be surprised to find out that it wasn't a "winning slogan" until the middle of 2018?
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/06/10/upshot/black-lives-matter-attitudes.html

Yet you know exactly how every yet to be created alternative slogan will be received. Do you understand why ppl get annoyed with your arguments?

Have y'all bought a gross ton of DTP t-shirts or something??

Can we just acknowledge something might work for a population and the same thing might not work for another? Hasn't the left abandoned dumb notions of universality in favor of coalition building and intersectionality?

I know how exactly every alternative slogan will be received because the slogan isn't the problem.

Cops don't want to give up their godlike powers. It's that simple. Anything that threatens to do that will be demonized.

When you "demilitarize the police" and that doesn't poll well in a mayoral election next year because the cop union pitched a fit, you gonna change it then?

GD the quote I posted wasn't from a cop, it was from a politician sucking up to them who still got called a "cop hater" and lost his election, speaking to milo's point.

You have no earthly idea what exactly "the problem" is.
I'm done dude. This is like every discussion with you ever.

Can we just acknowledge something might work for a population and the same thing might not work for another? Hasn't the left abandoned dumb notions of universality in favor of coalition building and intersectionality?

― Van Horn Street, Wednesday, November 11, 2020 8:02 PM (forty-six seconds ago)

yes that is why i am wondering why people itt are objecting to "defund the police" and "abolish the police" as if it has been adopted by the entirety of the left, no member of which is trying any other strategy at all, and is at fault for democrats who don't support it losing elections

thank u harbl

something something Overton Window

You don't answer the census and you thinking cheating in an election is ok. Who cares what you have to say honestly.

like i genuinely do understand why it might turn off some who would be receptive otherwise, same as has been expressed by others in this thread who don't have a problem with these slogans. i'm just suspicious of the arguments of those who are against them.

I'm here saying sure new slogan might not work. But you know all. You know the future and you know the minds of millions of people. Why are you wasting your talents at a comic book Shop and a message board

you know there are other people besides milo disagreeing with you here, right?

It's 100% up to centrist democrats in more conservative states who are facing headwinds to make their case that they aren't cop haters, the onus is on them. But i don't think DTP or ATP is a very good place for them to start with.

milo relentlessly otm itt

we are on the same page almost never so i'm honestly really thrilled

they aren't starting there and no one has objected to that! it's just, like i said upthread, what are people supposed to do? stop saying it? since it works where it works

VHS go read that fucking Appeal article. starting with DTP/ATP actually helps.

and yes milo is 100% otm here, and we are on the same page more than I give him credit for tbh

I mean, we're arguing about slogans. That's what PR firms are for. The substance doesn't change.

I think defund the police hurt democrats but I think there's only so much you can do about it and I don't know if you can "blame" anyone. It's not activists' job to figure out how democrats can win elections and structure everything they do around the fear of upsetting election apple carts. Republicans successfully tied the party IN GENERAL to rioting, looting and #abolishthepolice. I believe that had an impact in some swing districts even where the particular candidate didn't support abolishing police. I mean I'm pretty sure COVID hurt Republicans with some demographics too and that doesn't mean every single one of them had a bad policy on COVID. Moving the overton window is great, but words aren't magic. Sometimes the window doesn't move, or sometimes it takes years to move. Medicare for All was not only highly popular but was the latest incarnation of a policy that has been pushed for decades. Universal healthcare was attempted in the Clinton years. Abolish the Police pretty much came out of nowhere for most voters -- it sounds extremely radical to them and it's unpopular even with Democratic voters and even with voters of color.

At the end of the day I think Democrats could have done a much better job of getting THEIR message out so that such issues weren't allowed to define them. So I don't really focus on that point.

I think defund the police hurt democrats

jesus fucking Christ this is already disproven

progressive causes are more popular than Democrats, not vice versa.

as shown in Florida's $15 minimum wage vote

VHS go read that fucking Appeal article. starting with DTP/ATP actually helps.

The article doesn't deny my suspicions that DTP/ABT doesn't help democrats in more conservative states. If anything, Max Rose's example shows that it might be a dead-end.