Lindstrom & Prins Thomas are the shit

personally as a lover of drone-rock and of house and techno i hear so much more of the latter in the BMS record - the sound palette is analogue synths and pretty heavy drum machines, these have been the building blocks of dance music for the last 25 years. kate, coming onto a thread and insisting that it's straight-up dronerock doesn't make you wrong per se, because you can draw a thread from it back to the same stuff that inspired a lot of drone-rock - 'e2-e4' and ashra are two sides of the same coin, from the same guy. but it sounds like a bunch of late-80s jack tracks, and gavin russom has said that BMS as a project is his way of exploring dancefloor culture... i mean, i honestly don't see why techno fans saying "this techno record sounds like a techno record" is such a problem.

i believe we've been quite unfair to kate here - she's obviously using "drone" the way some people use the word "funk"; i.e. a record doesn't have to be a scratchy 45 with a brass section for someone to say "this is pure funk".

well yes but it came across like you haven't heard much of the dance music canon, much of which is spectacular, life-affirming music, and much of which sounds like the BMS record. it's not some major crime to have not heard all this stuff. but does it get you curious to delve further?

Dude, why on earth else do you think I've been getting my arse (politely) kicked all over these dance music threads for the past few months, except to try and explore?

At some point last autumn, I went to an indie gig, saw a dance DJ (who used to be an indie kid) playing a bunch of Silver Apples and Can and dodgy psych records next to a bunch of new records I'd never heard before - but captured more of the *spirit* of what I liked about those old records than the current rock scene supposedly inspired by them. So off I go to find out what this stuff is.

TBH, I'm not that interested in "canon". I have very distinct tastes, and I'm looking for stuff that hits mine own personal sweet spot, and I don't care if it comes from an Aeroplane remix or a Stereolab B-side; from Lindstrom or from T.O.N.T.O.'s Expanding Head Band.

It is a bit weird for me, as a Dirty Dronerock Girl - who pretty much hasn't listened to dance music on any serious level since about 1996, who hasn't even set foot in a club since 2001. Imagine the last time you heard dance music, it was either mindless eurotrance or drum'n'bass (or something equally inpenetrable) - now imagine with that background, that you hear that BMS record or a Lindstrom record. Is your first thought going to be "this is techno" or "this is drone/prog/spacerock?"

It makes sense to me, however, that BMS is a "project exploring dancefloor culture" - and why that would then appeal to me, as an outside to this kind of music. Because it does read, to me, like a drone/space/prog/person who owns too many Tangerine Dream records making a "dance" record, rather than an actual House record. (and having, to my ignorant ears, as many if not more of the signifiers of the former rather than the latter.) Ditto LPT.

(But this kind of "umbrella" genre terms just seem nonsense to me. It's like every ten years or so, a new generation of kids discover the same set of records and rework them in a new setting. And of course, that has to have a new "umbrella" term like "beardo" or whatever because that makes more sense than "we're just playing a bunch of old records we think sound good together." I dislike "beardo" for the same reason I dislike "new rock revolution" or whatever. Maybe this is because I'm a cynical old person and feel like I've heard it all before. Maybe because I am completely ignorant about dance/club culture. Couldn't tell you.)

Maybe I should really have started mine own "A Dirty Dronerock Girl's Adventures In The Dance/Club Scene" thread instead of just randomly reviving threads to go "wow! this is great!" on them. Too late now I suppose.

I think some sub-genres are very much of a time and place, though, so reusing 'post-punk' to describe early 00's bands like Interpol doesn't really work, which leaves people scrambling. iirc, and I might not be, Beardo was used to differentiate from 'cosmic' or 'space disco', the terms being bandied about when Lindstrøm's "I Feel Space" came out, because those were separate genres from a period in the past. Beardo was meant to catch that cosmic/hippy vibe as well sound completely ridiculous (i assume that was intentional?). fwiw, I think you're pretty spot on with the prog thing (L and PT together love to noodle), and I see where you're coming from with BMS.

All that said, I really don't know shit about dance music. It's been a slow conversion from indie gigs for me as well, hence my love of the accessibility of Lindstrøm, Aeroplane, Studio, et al, and probably for the similar reasons you give for getting into it in the first place (notable similarities in style to aforementioned genres and bands).

FACT mag interview with gavin russom

"Imagine the last time you heard dance music, it was either mindless eurotrance or drum'n'bass (or something equally inpenetrable) - now imagine with that background, that you hear that BMS record or a Lindstrom record. Is your first thought going to be "this is techno" or "this is drone/prog/spacerock?"

Kate, I think maybe part of the problem is that a lot of your comments, as positive as they are, feel like they're framed against a background of contempt for what I'll call "dance music proper" - e.g. describing eurotrance as "mindless".

One thing I tend to object to is people saying "I think music in X genre is by and large devoid of creativity or interest or soul or (insert term here). Except the following examples, and that is because they're redeemed by secretly being Y genre."

I think some people are likely to become annoyed if they think you're "claiming" Lindstrom or BMS or whatever as "prog" or "drone" not just because you like those genres and see connections, but also because you feel that music you would describe as "house" or "techno" or "trance" is just not worthy of attention.

I don't think that's what you're doing/saying but I can also see where the confusion might arise. I assume you're trying to say "I never got into those other dance genres, so I perceive this stuff differently", but it can come out sounding like "this is the first good dance music in a very long time, because it's not really dance music."

As I was saying above, one of the attractions of terms like beardo/balearic etc. is definitely how they dissolve the borders between what is "strictly" rock and "strictly" dance. But I can't help feeling that any nuanced and useful discussion of these terms or the music that falls underneath them surely must start from the acknowledgment (not just intellectual, but felt, intuited) that there is nothing wrong with "strictly" dance or rock per se or the musical values they embody.

Otherwise it can all very quickly boil down to: "finally! dance music that fits a rock sensibility"... and poorly written reviews about how Lindstrom "transcends" disco and is worthy of a place in heaven next to Klaus Schulze.

Just FYI, the "mindless" was a qualifier on "Eurotrance" - i.e. saying "green door" means specifically the door that *is* green, rather than implying that *all* doors are green.

So, basically, you guys are kneejerk reacting against things that you are infering me as saying, rather than anything I'm actually implying. You're treating me as a straw man for "rockists that only like dance music if it sounds like rock" as much as I'm treating any of you as straw men for genre fascism! ;-)

Maybe I should just retreat into Geir-like closed mindedness and just start banging on about "TEXTURE" and refusing to talk about anything else. Ha ha.

It's more like... this crossover is a way *in* for a DDG to get inside dance music. I'm never going to be a dance music... obsessive. But that doesn't mean that I don't acknowledge the existence and inherent *worth* (for lack of a better word) of dance music as a thing in and of itself. It's just mostly not my thing. There are bits and pieces that appeal to my Geir-like texture obsession. Is it contempt to say you just don't *like* something? I like Acid House, but I don't like House. That doesn't mean I don't think House should exist. It just means it's not my thing.

Which makes it very... confusing (for lack of a better word) for me to find BMS in the "house" section of Phonica.

(The interview linked above really reminds me of Richard Norris talking about him and Genesis P.Orridge making fake "acid house" based solely on reading about it.)

I mean, "strictly rock" makes me want to hurl. These are the people who invaded my beloved Nu-Gaze scene and made it unlistenable. When my idea of dronerock and shoegaze was Sonic Boom discovering analogue synths and making Playing With Fire, or dancing around Sonic Cathedral to the Andrew Weatherall remix of My Bloody Valentine - and suddenly all these yobs in black leather jackets turn up with Marshall stacks and pretending like the BRMC invented the entire genre. And I want to scream NO NO NO NO NO.

So it's ... confusing for me that you're trying to lump me in with the people that I'm trying to get *away* from.

The back story in that interview explains *why* that record was in the house section of Phonica - but I am reacting to these records just as pure sound, without a back story. Just some random record I picked up coz something someone wrote on another messageboard made me think I might like it.

so bummed that all the new posts on the L&PT thread are about this.

It sounds like "the Magnificent" on that new Lindstrom 12" is part of Where You Go...

Kate yeah I got what you're coming from. My point was that I think you give people the wrong impression sometimes by the way you describe things - it's not at all obvious that "mindless" eurotrance doesn't apply to all eurotrance especially in the context in which you used it. It's not contempt to dislike something, but talking about your own experiences in universal-ish terms can make it sound that way. i.e. for lots and lots and lots of people drum & bass is very accessible and drone-rock or nu-gaze would be the very definition of "inpenetrable."

You really know how to suck the joy out of talking about a piece of music, don't you?

i've really enjoyed reading kate's posts on dance music recently. i've followed the evolution of the genre terms so i get why people think she's "wrong" (though splitting hairs over terms used ONLY on ilx is o_0 in the extreme), but i think her outside perspective is more valuable than being "right" about genres, and she's made it clear that it's a personal perspective which she doesn't expect others to necessarily share. a lot of what she's posted has enabled me to hear things in BMS and L&PT that i wouldn't necessarily have otherwise.

in theory, reading an outsider's perspective of something primarily consumed by genre fans is something i'd want more of, but as tim says, in practice it can often be accompanied by an annoying sense of superiority and dismissal, and part of the reason that i've enjoyed reading kate on BMS etc is that she's not doing this.

at the same time, kate, i don't think the airy/sarky disagreement is as personal as you think - i know it reads slightly disdainful but it's prob due to these threads not usually getting much "outsider perspective" action.

why can't we all just get along, basically. w/r/t the actual substance of the music, this has actually made for a really good read, when people aren't taking offence or being superior.

I don't think anyone's claiming that Kate's wrong about L&PT here or that her reasons for liking it are illegitimate, incidentally. It would be perverse in the extreme for anyone to try and argue there was no prog or spacerock in II, or Where You Go I Go Too, particularly when the producers wear their 70s rock influences on their sleeves so readily.

I just find this whole discussion a bit confusing because the scene that Lindstrom and Prins Thomas are part of kind of thrives on this very conscious hippy inclusivity. One of the nice things about nu-Balearic is that it's largely unconcerned with gatekeepers.

let's get back to the music!
I have to say that so far I'm a bit disappointed by II, which I find slightly, errr, boring... (whereas I loved 'Where You Go...'). Then again balearic/beardo/whatever seems so dependent on listening context that I might not have heard II in a proper setting.

the meanderthals album has meant that i haven't gone back to ii nearly as much as i thought i would.

I think I prefer II - the Meanderthals album reminds me of a sunnier version of lots of mongy instrumental trip-hop stuff from 10 years ago that I don't really want to be reminded of.

I'm also sure I read something about there being a Lindstrom & Solale album set for this year. I hope I haven't just made this up because I've already inflated it to 'best thing ever' proportions in my head.

i tihnk it's supposed to come out in october

i think the production puts the meandethals record above II for me

ii feels like it noodles a lot more aimlessly than meanderthals, which is pleasant enough but a bit in one ear, out the other. meanderthals keeps the blissed-out vibes but with a lot more focus.

the Meanderthals album reminds me of a sunnier version of lots of mongy instrumental trip-hop stuff from 10 years ago that I don't really want to be reminded of.

the whole space-disco / beardo thing is the new trip-hop ... if you go back and listen to something like this you'll hear a fair amount of stuff that wouldn't sound out of place next to a bear funk or a rong music record

i listen to meanderthals front to back much more often than II but the tracks i go back to on II (cisco, skal vi prove naa, note i love you + 100) i like easily as much as desire lines if not more

desire lines also has the benefit of being way more summery and hitting at the exact right time as seasons were changing

desire lines has the benefit of IDJUT BOYS POWER

I have only heard the one Meanderthals track that was on a Smalltown Supersound comp - didn't impress me that much but maybe I need to give it another listen.

I love the sprawl and kind of lack of focus of II. It really gives me the sense of two amazing musicians who just turned on the tape recorder and recorded whatever came out - get the same sort of vibe as from the Harmonia live album that was recently (re)released. Even if this isn't how they did it, the fact that it gives that kind of vibe is quite an accomplishment, to make something so complex and layered sound so... easily tossed off.

The way bits of it remind me for moments of other records - a snatch of something in the midst of a meander. Is this the dance music equivalent of record collection rock, ha ha?

the Meanderthals album reminds me of a sunnier version of lots of mongy instrumental trip-hop stuff from 10 years ago that I don't really want to be reminded of.

the whole space-disco / beardo thing is the new trip-hop ... if you go back and listen to something like this you'll hear a fair amount of stuff that wouldn't sound out of place next to a bear funk or a rong music record

― moonship journey to baja, Monday, July 6, 2009 11:06 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

http://www.discogs.com/Rune-Lindb%C3%A6k-S%C3%B8ndag/release/79884">This Rune Lindbaek record from 2001 has some tracks that fit in with all the new baleric stuff and a couple that are trip hop.

http://www.discogs.com/Rune-Lindb%C3%A6k-S%C3%B8ndag/release/79884

i strongly believe trip-hop should not be a bad word - some of the trip hop stuff from the mid-90s electronica heyday is like up there with my favorite music of all time

ten to fifteen years ago i was listening to weird al and this CD i bought that had all the beatles songs played on synths with dog bark samples so i missed out on trip hop and am excited for its comeback

i loved trip-hop in the 90s (tho only the most well-known, i was 13-15) and have never thought of it as a bad word. it saved me from being into britpop like all the other kids at school.

hahaha - otm. Yeah it's due for a revival. I guess by the end of it, it had become pretty formulaic (but still more interesting than most of the stuff at that time), but in its heyday, like beardo, the genre was pretty hard to define ("hip hop beats + atmospheric stuff" still left a lot of room for variation)

I'm also a bit underwhelmed by II - and yet I LOVED LOVED LOVED Where You Go I Go Too, which I probably listened to more often than any other album in the second half of 2008. I miss the pristine precision, the emotional intensity, the sweep and the scale. Difficult to avoid the word "noodly" - which isn't necessarily a bad quality, but I was expecting rather more in the way of transcendence.

i sort of thought of the gang gang dance album as the rehabilitation of trip-hop, but of course it's been going for several years in various permutations. (including dubstep obv.) major difference between beardo stuff and trip-hop, imo, is the general good-vibishness -- trip-hop was built around moodiness, paranoia, noir-y dystopian stuff, a reaction against acid house, trance, etc etc. or it always seemed that way to me. so i think the beardo brigades are maybe using some of the same strategies, musically or sonically, but in a much more utopian (or ecotopian, even) way. good trips vs. bad trips.

Interesting point, although some of the beardo stuff (esp. Lindstrom) has a somewhat creepy dimension as far as I'm concerned

and there's a lot of trip hop (chemical brothers and air to take a couple of examples) that were all about good vibes

^^yeah was just gonna say, trip-hop at its chilled, sleepier end was only a chord change away from "good vibes" - still moody but a good mood - idk if i'd class chem bros as trip-hop, and air were presumably coming from a different scene, but weirdly morcheeba are coming to mind - i might dig big calm out and see how it holds up.

=> => => the good vibes of UK funky?

Yeah I was gonna bring up Morcheeba - in a way they represented the end of trip-hop, the point were the sounds had become so ubiquitous that you could use them to make a consensual mainstream record, but still 'Big Calm' is def. part of that scene/era.

i'm using "trip hop" and "big beat" interchangeably here

i'm using "trip hop" and "big beat" interchangeably here

And you say *I* know naught about dance genres? Come on, even *I* know those are very different beasts! :-P

i never said that

xposts

The Magnificent would've sounded pretty amazing three or four years ago, when I was just catching L&PT fever (and starting this thread) but while I really appreciate the nice chord changes and such I feel he's come SUCH a long way since then (assuming that the tracks are older, of course, cos they *sound* older to me) that i'm not particularly *excited* about it. B-side wins again here though.

also xposts

i guess trip-hop for me has always been defined by its early, moody benchmarks -- massive attack/tricky/portishead most obviously. but for sure morcheeba counts, and mono too. (not that mono, the other mono.) so yeah it wasn't all philip k. dick soundtrack music, even though my favorite stuff sort of was. and that's the side of it dubstep picked up from. whereas lindstrom & al. seem groovier to me in all respects -- which is not a bad thing, i like the unabashed uplift of a lot of it.

i really want to hear lindstrom do something raw and crazy again like 'a blast of loser'. god that was good!

so would it be correct to say that both trip hop and beardo are in some respects baggy or hippy? (stoner music, basically. beardo = the hippy acid house?) my fave lindstrom is "the contemporary fix", but there are so many good ones it is hard to choose.

i like lots of shit that is probably 'trip hop' but when i think trip hop i pretty much exclusively think of the stuff i dont like & it all seems so limited by the breakbeats. boring rap instrumentals

I love the sprawl and kind of lack of focus of II"Acid Tracks". It really gives me the sense of two amazing musicians who just turned on the tape recorder and recorded whatever came out - get the same sort of vibe as from the Harmonia live album that was recently (re)released. Even if this isn't how they did it, the fact that it gives that kind of vibe is quite an accomplishment, to make something so complex and layered sound so... easily tossed off.

revisiting old trip hop records, the breakbeats/boring rap instrumentals aspect totally ruins them, but so much could fit on the quiet village lp if they just had different beats. i'm thinking mo'wax and stuff, though, if we're talking morcheeba etc.. i can't see those sorts of folks tearing it up w/L&P, there's more of an adult contemporary focus going on there.

winston needs to stop posting