What are Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Flaws?

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At least shit-shoveling is honest work

The Bosom Manor Michaelmas Special (silby), Saturday, 7 November 2020 20:25 (three years ago) link

plenty of shit to shovel tbf

||||||||, Saturday, 7 November 2020 20:26 (three years ago) link

Which part is untrue? Joe Biden's public option, for instance, is both bad policy and an obstacle in the pursuit of single-payer healthcare. One does not, in fact, gotta hand it to the moderates on any point where they are making the world worse or obstructing the possibility of making it better.

I can be super wrong about this, we'll see, anyone who is 100% certain they are right about it are deluding themselves anyway. I just don't see Biden's public option as an obstacle in the pursuit of the single-payer healthcare, in fact to me it's the genie out of the bottle and it won't go back inside. My prediction is that once the public option is settled and working, the electorate will understand how well single-payer works and how natural it is.

Van Horn Street, Saturday, 7 November 2020 20:32 (three years ago) link

yeah i agree with that

treeship., Saturday, 7 November 2020 20:33 (three years ago) link

it's AOC's job, going forward, to build a progressive coalition especially on issues like healthcare, a living wage, free college, etc

treeship., Saturday, 7 November 2020 20:33 (three years ago) link

It’s called the congressional progressive caucus and it already exists and has half of the house dems in it

The Bosom Manor Michaelmas Special (silby), Saturday, 7 November 2020 20:35 (three years ago) link

you can't have Medicare for all because milo posts bad tweets

and the best way to get Medicare for all is to scoop up your own feces and throw them at anyone who has questions, doubts or hesitations, as opposed to answering their questions, addressing their doubts and encouraging them to reconsider.

as for the defense that 'it's just the internet so it doesn't matter', that's just rationalizing behavior that would be ugly no matter where it appears. living in a society is impossible without being able to tone down raging emotions. children throw tantrums. adults should understand the value of pretending to be civil. even on the internet.

nah. it's hopeless. some of you will get what I'm saying. the same crew who never get it, will not get it now. I'm hitting submit anyway. It's my birthday tomorrow so I get to.

the unappreciated charisma of cows (Aimless), Saturday, 7 November 2020 20:35 (three years ago) link

duh silby

treeship., Saturday, 7 November 2020 20:36 (three years ago) link

The public option - which is irrelevant because of the Senate - wouldn't be "working," though. It requires obscenely high out of pocket costs, fails to control costs and would be constantly under attack as a failure of government as a result.

Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Saturday, 7 November 2020 20:36 (three years ago) link

Biden's insistence on running on this bad policy and taking every opportunity to shit on single-payer is the obstacle to American healthcare ever being anything more than a treat for the wealthy.

Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Saturday, 7 November 2020 20:40 (three years ago) link

How is even-handed rational dispassionate debate still anyone’s understanding of how the world works at this late date

The Bosom Manor Michaelmas Special (silby), Saturday, 7 November 2020 20:40 (three years ago) link

Well first if the public option is irrelevant because of the Senate than what of single-payer.

Then, as imperfect as Obamacare was, and by so many metrics it's a worse system than the public option, it is still seen as a success and the right couldn't dismantle it thanks to its popularity.

Finally, single payer will forever be under attack as a failure of government, too. They already call it a failure in Canada despite the very fact that it isn't.

Van Horn Street, Saturday, 7 November 2020 20:42 (three years ago) link

I have my disagreements with progressive but I didn't think 'it will be under attack by the idiots' will be an argument I'll see one day, you guys call yourselves socialists most of the time exactly because the strength is that you stop caring about what the other aisle think.

Van Horn Street, Saturday, 7 November 2020 20:44 (three years ago) link

I understand how small a role rationality plays in most of life, including politics. But it is still a vital role. Remove rationality altogether and it's like pulling the keystone from an arch. You've still got all the stones you had before, but in a collapsed heap.

the unappreciated charisma of cows (Aimless), Saturday, 7 November 2020 20:45 (three years ago) link

Obamacare is a failure - costs have continually increased, healthcare as a percentage of GDP has increased, quality of care and outcomes has not improved.

The Most Powerful Man In The World denigrating policy as unwise or unrealistic limits the extent to which it can be taken seriously as a goal. Running on weak and bad policy means you do things like lose House seats and fail to flip the Senate.

Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Saturday, 7 November 2020 20:46 (three years ago) link

The Man Who Would Be King

the unappreciated charisma of cows (Aimless), Saturday, 7 November 2020 20:48 (three years ago) link

This is still Shoot Em In The Leg Biden we’re talking about here

The Bosom Manor Michaelmas Special (silby), Saturday, 7 November 2020 20:49 (three years ago) link

I have my disagreements with progressive but I didn't think 'it will be under attack by the idiots' will be an argument I'll see one day, you guys call yourselves socialists most of the time exactly because the strength is that you stop caring about what the other aisle think.

It's not about what the "other aisle thinks."

Universal programs are safer, as policy achievements, because everyone benefits, everyone is invested, everyone has skin in the game. Social Security is the Third Rail, mostly safe from the likes of Joe Biden (lol) and George W. Bush because everyone's grandma got that check.

One reason Obamacare has been a failure is because of the (horribly confusing) means-tested subsidies.

Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Saturday, 7 November 2020 20:50 (three years ago) link

Obamacare is a failure

people with pre-existing conditions cannot be thrown off their healthcare thanks to the ACA.

treeship., Saturday, 7 November 2020 20:51 (three years ago) link

this is not ideal but it's not nothing. i wouldn't want to go back to a world before the ACA.

treeship., Saturday, 7 November 2020 20:51 (three years ago) link

Healthcare you can't use because of cost isn't actually healthcare.

Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Saturday, 7 November 2020 20:53 (three years ago) link

I’ll give it (and the GOP lol) this: folks are really starting to clamor for sOcialized medicine

A-B-C. A-Always, B-Be, C-Chooglin (will), Saturday, 7 November 2020 20:54 (three years ago) link

xp it's still better than before for millions of people. you have to admit that
obviously a single payer option would be best, but Obamacare was sabotaged from the beginning and especially frmo 2012-onwards

Nhex, Saturday, 7 November 2020 20:55 (three years ago) link

Universal programs are safer, as policy achievements, because everyone benefits, everyone is invested

^hard agree. it's the best structure by far.

Obamacare has been a failure is because of the (horribly confusing) means-tested subsidies.

it is a failure measured by some metrics, a success measured by others. compared to the hit and miss system of medical insurance through employment, it has been a clear, but incremental and flawed, improvement. you sound indistinguishable from the 'abolish the ACA' crowd of hard right shitheads.

the unappreciated charisma of cows (Aimless), Saturday, 7 November 2020 20:55 (three years ago) link

Sabotage and state refusals to expand Medicaid, etc. are used to excuse it - but that's why it (and why things like Biden's plans) has been bad policy. If the functioning of your program is entirely dependent on the reactionary party playing nice, you're fucked.

Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Saturday, 7 November 2020 20:57 (three years ago) link

How is even-handed rational dispassionate debate still anyone’s understanding of how the world works at this late date


Otm, and disingenuousness/gaslighting is just as lacking in civility as “throwing tantrums” or whatever.

brimstead, Saturday, 7 November 2020 20:59 (three years ago) link

although tbh I think maybe the left should start just tricking people into supporting socialism or something

brimstead, Saturday, 7 November 2020 21:00 (three years ago) link

(Also, the original sabotage came from “liberals and moderates”)

Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Saturday, 7 November 2020 21:00 (three years ago) link

i agree that single payer is the only sane healthcare policy.

treeship., Saturday, 7 November 2020 21:02 (three years ago) link

"Obamacare is a failure -"

It's an improvement over what existed before it.
Aimless is right, this is the same dumb argument with the same obtuse posters that get off on being wet blankets.

A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Saturday, 7 November 2020 21:07 (three years ago) link

There are other public health care systems around the world that work pretty well too!

Van Horn Street, Saturday, 7 November 2020 21:07 (three years ago) link

tbh GD y’all make it so easy

The Bosom Manor Michaelmas Special (silby), Saturday, 7 November 2020 21:08 (three years ago) link

Obamacare is simultaneously a success and a failure.

pomenitul, Saturday, 7 November 2020 21:09 (three years ago) link

progressive policy goals still face an uphill battle. that didn't change because biden was elected but no one is saying they did. that's why i don't get why we're having this conversation again now.

treeship., Saturday, 7 November 2020 21:10 (three years ago) link

are we ever not

it bangs for thee (Simon H.), Saturday, 7 November 2020 21:11 (three years ago) link

It has be to easier now with Biden than with Trump, the difference is going to be like night and day.

Van Horn Street, Saturday, 7 November 2020 21:12 (three years ago) link

We’re having this conversation because Aimless tut-tutted someone’s tone xp

The Bosom Manor Michaelmas Special (silby), Saturday, 7 November 2020 21:12 (three years ago) link

We've already solved this conundrum forever:

Are you an accelerationist, y/n?

pomenitul, Saturday, 7 November 2020 21:12 (three years ago) link

“Wet blanket” - why should the default be sweetness and light?

Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Saturday, 7 November 2020 21:12 (three years ago) link

Aimless tut-tutted someone’s tone

monotone

the unappreciated charisma of cows (Aimless), Saturday, 7 November 2020 21:15 (three years ago) link

The only progressive policy goals with a snowball’s chance in hell of making progress are those that amount to undoing the fascist enterprises of the executive under Trump, which will bring us to the status quo ante of Obama’s second term, so yay trans kids and DACA, boo deportation force and drone war I guess.

Any further turn towards progressivism originating in the executive will be wholly contingent on the party in the White House, subject to sweeping reversal as soon as control changes hands.

No meaningful legislation on any matter whatsoever will be passed by the next congress if it remains in GOP control, and will still be watered down by the senate if it’s Georgia sends two democrats and it’s 50-50 plus Harris because the likes of Joe Manchin can stomp their little feet whenever they don’t like something, much like Joementun did with the ACA.

So I wouldn’t say night and day. Night and slightly less dark night.

Anyway abolish the police.

The Bosom Manor Michaelmas Special (silby), Saturday, 7 November 2020 21:16 (three years ago) link

Also fuck machine mayors, vote the bastards out

The Bosom Manor Michaelmas Special (silby), Saturday, 7 November 2020 21:18 (three years ago) link

Abolish the πόλις.

pomenitul, Saturday, 7 November 2020 21:19 (three years ago) link

Hey I’m not an anarchist

The Bosom Manor Michaelmas Special (silby), Saturday, 7 November 2020 21:19 (three years ago) link

Why is your default to be like this CONSTANTLY? it's sucking tedious. I know silby is just a miserable SOB so what's your explanation milo?

A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Saturday, 7 November 2020 21:19 (three years ago) link

I’m pretty cheerful most of the time

The Bosom Manor Michaelmas Special (silby), Saturday, 7 November 2020 21:19 (three years ago) link

Abolish the pelisse.

pomenitul, Saturday, 7 November 2020 21:20 (three years ago) link

constant to semi constant misery and an utter inability to chill is a common ailment among leftists I know, myself included. comes with the frustration of the world not being better and having a bit of a concept of just how much collective effort would be required to significantly unfuck it.

it bangs for thee (Simon H.), Saturday, 7 November 2020 21:23 (three years ago) link

Same, I’m genially amused most of the time. Maintaining a strict poz vibes only attitude about Joe Biden to be happy sounds like torture.

Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Saturday, 7 November 2020 21:24 (three years ago) link


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