No i’m suggesting that the fact they can openly complain about the establishment is a pretty rare sight in party politics.
― Van Horn Street, Saturday, 7 November 2020 00:23 (three years ago) link
Because the Democrats aren’t a political party in any meaningful sense.
― Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Saturday, 7 November 2020 00:24 (three years ago) link
Well good then it seems to be working very well for the progressives.
― Van Horn Street, Saturday, 7 November 2020 00:27 (three years ago) link
In the sense that they’re allowed to run? Sure. Not supported, just allowed, mind you.
In the sense that the party leaders will adopt progressive policy stances? No.
― Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Saturday, 7 November 2020 00:49 (three years ago) link
And slowly and surely they won’t need the party leaders, so who cares.
― Van Horn Street, Saturday, 7 November 2020 00:58 (three years ago) link
people who die as a result of the slowness might, but they won't be around any longer, so who cares
the fact they can openly complain about the establishment
A mark of her excellence as a politician is that AOC almost invariably frames her arguments as disagreements on the best route to a common positive goal, not as complaints.
― @oneposter (✔️) (sic), Saturday, 7 November 2020 01:19 (three years ago) link
Agreed. AOC has amazingly sharp communication skills. Excellent political and diplomatic skills, too. She must have started honing them when she was very young, since they seem to be innate by now.
― the unappreciated charisma of cows (Aimless), Saturday, 7 November 2020 01:25 (three years ago) link
a big part of this is called "working in a regular-ass public-facing job for a long time" which the majority of US national elected reps have never done
― it bangs for thee (Simon H.), Saturday, 7 November 2020 01:30 (three years ago) link
(not to discount that separately from / on top of that she is v skilled)
her tweets have better zings on both libs and republicans than like 99% of left twitter
― flopson, Saturday, 7 November 2020 02:57 (three years ago) link
That’s not hard
― Van Horn Street, Saturday, 7 November 2020 03:16 (three years ago) link
Thank you sic for your recent posts that did a better job of explaining my frustrations with the Dems than I ever could, mostly because I get so angry that my general incoherence really ramps up
― healthy cocaine off perfect butts (the table is the table), Saturday, 7 November 2020 03:57 (three years ago) link
To have a party that allows that much diversity of opinion on such an important issue as health care is pretty rare, even outside of the US, I don't see much of it in Canada, even less so in France. There's a bit of a conflict of narrative when on one hand, the Dem party leadership is so powerful and evil they can decide a candidate without consulting the people and ignore a whole part of the electorate and yet on the other hand those progressive candidates keep getting elected under the Democratic banner. I don't think any side is truly the victim of the other and as long as people like Ocasio-Cortez or Jamaal Bowman are allowed the thrive I don't think we can talk about 'shitting on progressive ideas'.
― Van Horn Street, Friday, November 6, 2020 6:52 PM (four hours ago) bookmarkflaglink
I think a lot of the American left doesn’t appreciate that in other countries the party has much MORE control over who runs on its ticket. I guess our semi up for grabs ballot lines are the consolation prize for our rigid two party system.
TBF more leftists have finally woken up to this and that’s why we are seeing these left on dem ticket wins. It’s so much more fruitful than the bullshit like the Green Party that people were focusing on when I was younger.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Saturday, 7 November 2020 04:09 (three years ago) link
Here's the middle of a thread that, at this point, breaks down AOC's specific messaging on Defund The Police and other applications of that three-word format.
Here's AOC's tweet history on the word "defund." When "Defund ICE" was an important part of left messaging, she tweeted about it all the time. "Defund the police"? Very different story. https://t.co/P5t3MuMp77— Angus Johnston (@studentactivism) November 6, 2020
I said: "Defund the police" expresses a clear benefit only to those who want fewer policeDoc said: for many folks, defunding the police has at least one other "core benefit," which is, less funded police.We're both talking about the same people, the ones for whom fewer police is an end in itself. The question is whether there are enough of them to win elections. If so, then the slogan is perfect for those cities and counties where "we want fewer police" is the dominant sentiment.
Doc said: for many folks, defunding the police has at least one other "core benefit," which is, less funded police.
We're both talking about the same people, the ones for whom fewer police is an end in itself. The question is whether there are enough of them to win elections. If so, then the slogan is perfect for those cities and counties where "we want fewer police" is the dominant sentiment.
BTW by my re-reading, Doc was saying "less" on purpose: I certainly think less funded police is a far more urgent issue than fewer police.
Even if the former has a corollary benefit of leading to the latter, by weeding out some of the types who are only in it for the ability to use resources against their peers. (Appreciate it, tabes.)
― @oneposter (✔️) (sic), Saturday, 7 November 2020 05:58 (three years ago) link
people are saying "defund the police" isn't a workable slogan, but personally i think every city should have a big billboard with a chart showing police budget vs every other department's budget, paired with the line "when was the last time a cop helped you" pic.twitter.com/3MgLoAPsUo— Aisling McCrea (@ambientGillian) November 6, 2020
― @oneposter (✔️) (sic), Saturday, 7 November 2020 12:13 (three years ago) link
That tweet is exactly right. Another potential approach: show pictures of the most horrifyingly militarized cops in Yourtown and ask, "Does Ourtown really need a tank more than the library needs a new roof (or whatever)?"
― but also fuck you (unperson), Saturday, 7 November 2020 13:47 (three years ago) link
Although even "defund ICE," I think it was easily manipulable by opponents into sounding like it meant "stop doing border control" when it just means "go back to doing border control the way we did it for decades until we impulsively decided 15 years ago to create an unaccountable subagency to take over the job and do it worse"
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Saturday, 7 November 2020 14:01 (three years ago) link
well even that job is really done by CBP, which has its own problems
― superdeep borehole (harbl), Saturday, 7 November 2020 14:41 (three years ago) link
Destroy CBP too.
― healthy cocaine off perfect butts (the table is the table), Saturday, 7 November 2020 14:45 (three years ago) link
Borders are tools of social control and resource hoarding, destroy those too.
people could really be pointing out more that ICE didn't even exist until 2003
― like, I’m eating an elephant head (katherine), Saturday, 7 November 2020 14:46 (three years ago) link
well, i had written a longer post about why "abolish ICE" was more digestible to normies and that was one of the reasons. but i felt like i was justifying the "'abolish the police' made me lose my election" whine so i deleted it.
― superdeep borehole (harbl), Saturday, 7 November 2020 14:47 (three years ago) link
I'd say it's about equally digestible, the problem is that people are reluctant to get rid of anything that's "tradition," even if that "tradition" is extremely short-lived. if it exists, it always must have existed. same with the militarization of the police
― like, I’m eating an elephant head (katherine), Saturday, 7 November 2020 14:50 (three years ago) link
(or with court-packing for that matter)
or with the United States as a country!
― healthy cocaine off perfect butts (the table is the table), Saturday, 7 November 2020 16:07 (three years ago) link
I think that's exactly right, katherine. I'd wager most people haven't thought very hard about police budgets and can't see a real difference between "defund" and "abolish," and that seems insanely radical and unprecedented to a lot of well-meaning people.
― jaymc, Saturday, 7 November 2020 16:20 (three years ago) link
Also for lots of well meaning people it means people losing jobs, which never really flies.
― Van Horn Street, Saturday, 7 November 2020 16:46 (three years ago) link
To me it all means demilitarize the police which is a matter of both equipment forfeiture and reculturation, the latter needs to be especially aggressive
― covidsbundlertanze op. 6 (Jon not Jon), Saturday, 7 November 2020 17:04 (three years ago) link
i think every city should have a big billboard with a chart showing police budget vs every other department's budget, paired with the line "when was the last time a cop helped you"
Genius. Aisling McCrea gets how to message. A nine word slogan just barely fits into the optimum range of length, but that one works. The visual component is crucial education, too.
― the unappreciated charisma of cows (Aimless), Saturday, 7 November 2020 17:36 (three years ago) link
that chart is even worse than it looks, too - they should have added the $60M "police overtime" line item to the $414M "police department" total
― @oneposter(✔️) (Karl Malone), Saturday, 7 November 2020 18:26 (three years ago) link
Dunno there might be value in "never mind the main budget...they spend more on OVERTIME than they do on [relatable thing that matters]"
― here we go, ten in a rona (onimo), Saturday, 7 November 2020 18:38 (three years ago) link
yeah, the overtime and regular budgets should be colour-coded the same, to associate better, but it's very useful to see what a rort OT is. as I sort of noted upthread, a bar showing police legal settlements wld also be appropriate as a third tally: the ten largest PDs in the US collectively paid $250M in misconduct cases in 2014, which is an additional cost to taxpayers on top of their cities" actual budgets.
― @oneposter (✔️) (sic), Saturday, 7 November 2020 19:21 (three years ago) link
I am a progressive, and I think you need to develop a more conciliatory and cooperative attitude. I also think that you can't expect to be listen to immediately is the new kid on the block— karen zimmerman (@ghostwriterkz) November 7, 2020
― Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Saturday, 7 November 2020 19:34 (three years ago) link
Literally Karen
― The Bosom Manor Michaelmas Special (silby), Saturday, 7 November 2020 19:50 (three years ago) link
I know it feels good to attack liberals and moderates from the left, but attacks do not build your numbers. Selling better policies that obviously will improve people's lives will build your numbers.
When you can't implement your policy goals on your own, you need allies to get somewhere. When the time comes, you can primary those who won't come along as allies, replace them and move forward. When you attack potential allies with no strategic aim but to show how much smarter you are all you do is marginalize yourself.
― the unappreciated charisma of cows (Aimless), Saturday, 7 November 2020 19:53 (three years ago) link
and awwwwaaaaayyyyyy we go!
― early-Woolf semantic prosody (Hadrian VIII), Saturday, 7 November 2020 19:56 (three years ago) link
lol never change Aimless
― The Bosom Manor Michaelmas Special (silby), Saturday, 7 November 2020 19:57 (three years ago) link
It’s good not bad to attack liberals and moderates from the left including Joe Biden
you can't have Medicare for all because milo posts bad tweets
― it bangs for thee (Simon H.), Saturday, 7 November 2020 19:59 (three years ago) link
every Dem representative not in the Progressive Caucus needs a primary challenger
― The Bosom Manor Michaelmas Special (silby), Saturday, 7 November 2020 19:59 (three years ago) link
If people ignore you because of your race, you should be friends with them.
― @oneposter (✔️) (sic), Saturday, 7 November 2020 20:00 (three years ago) link
You seem to think I equate "attacking a person" and "criticizing a policy". Maybe you do, but I don't.
― the unappreciated charisma of cows (Aimless), Saturday, 7 November 2020 20:14 (three years ago) link
I know it feels good to attack liberals and moderates from the left, but attacks do not build your numbers. Selling better policies that obviously will improve people's lives will build your numbers.When you can't implement your policy goals on your own, you need allies to get somewhere. When the time comes, you can primary those who won't come along as allies, replace them and move forward. When you attack potential allies with no strategic aim but to show how much smarter you are all you do is marginalize yourself
When you can't implement your policy goals on your own, you need allies to get somewhere. When the time comes, you can primary those who won't come along as allies, replace them and move forward. When you attack potential allies with no strategic aim but to show how much smarter you are all you do is marginalize yourself
Up to liberals and moderates to not take the bait each and every time too. None of that animosity prevented Pelosi to support Omar in a primary.
― Van Horn Street, Saturday, 7 November 2020 20:15 (three years ago) link
They’re bad people brent
― The Bosom Manor Michaelmas Special (silby), Saturday, 7 November 2020 20:15 (three years ago) link
with no strategic aim but to show how much smarter you are
― brimstead, Saturday, 7 November 2020 20:16 (three years ago) link
If liberals and moderates do not support your goals, they are not "allies," they are in fact a hindrance.
― Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Saturday, 7 November 2020 20:17 (three years ago) link
that is like such a shitty line I can’t even xp
― brimstead, Saturday, 7 November 2020 20:17 (three years ago) link
No one likes this amount of dogmatism, milo.
― Van Horn Street, Saturday, 7 November 2020 20:19 (three years ago) link
If anyone has a strategic aim in posting to ILX, they should seek help immediately.
― Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Saturday, 7 November 2020 20:20 (three years ago) link
are you talking about AOC?
god, no. she's shows she is smart by making smart moves and saying smart things, to get her closer to where she wants to go. she says scathing things about Freedom Caucus members when they cross a line, but she doesn't gratuitously shit on Pelosi's head.
― the unappreciated charisma of cows (Aimless), Saturday, 7 November 2020 20:20 (three years ago) link