Terrorist attacks throughout Europe

This is actually more the equivalent of a white supremacist shooting up a church and then having a thread where we discuss the opioid crisis in the shooter's community.

Or, say, internet radicalization of young men, which is a relevant and valid thing to discuss in that context.

But we're not discussing the use of propaganda to radicalize young muslims, we're discussing why it's france's fault.

Extremism in minority communities isn’t motivated by the same factors as extremism in majority communities, but you know that, right?

― liberté, égalité, scampé (gyac), Thursday, October 29, 2020 12:08 PM (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink

This is complete bullshit. You are projecting your revolutionary leftist fantasy onto a right wing reactionary group.

Plus, I think part of the reflex for some french people is to not let the RN/FN dictate the terms of the discussion in the aftermath of such tragic situations.

French cultural norms are a big factor in helping that propaganda along; as others itt have said, it's not a coincidence that the same propaganda doesn't acquire as much purchase in other countries it targets.

xpost

xp a lot of projection itt, but none of this is mine. If you can’t make a non-strawman argument or reply without accusing fellow ilxors of obscene views they don’t hold, feel free to go.

do you clowns have any ideas that aren’t either dogwhistling send-em-back sentiment or what?

― liberté, égalité, scampé (gyac), Thursday, October 29, 2020 12:53 PM (twenty-one minutes ago)

If you can’t make a non-strawman argument or reply without accusing fellow ilxors of obscene views they don’t hold, feel free to go.

― liberté, égalité, scampé (gyac), Thursday, October 29, 2020 1:12 PM (two minutes ago)

This is actually more the equivalent of a white supremacist shooting up a church and then having a thread where we discuss the opioid crisis in the shooter's community.

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, October 29, 2020 1:06 PM (seven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I do not believe it’s such a coincidence white supremacy attacks and threats are more prevalent in the US than in some other western countries no.

I don't either! But I don't think it's for parallel reasons to what you're claiming about France.

French cultural norms are a big factor in helping that propaganda along; as others itt have said, it's not a coincidence that the same propaganda doesn't acquire as much purchase in other countries it targets.

xpost

― Daniel_Rf, Thursday, October 29, 2020 12:12 PM (four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I mean, is that demonstrably true? France also has a much larger muslim population than other countries that propaganda targets.

I’m 100% ready to be wrong on this, fwiw. I just think extremists in France were allowed to flourish for many reasons, I don’t see how the very poor treatment of the muslim minorities and the violence imposed on them couldn’t be one of them. Certainly, it would help to treat these minorities better.

I don't see anyone disagreeing with that. My point was, how about we talk about that when there's an incident in which muslims are mistreated, instead of when a woman is beheaded in a church.

France is also involved in what is until now only a war of words with Turkey over Turkey's search for natural gas in waters claimed by Greece, and for Turkey's support of Azerbaijan against Armenia. The worldwide rally against France this week in majority-Muslim countries is an attempt to use the debate over whether French people should have freedom of expression as a means to advance Turkey's agenda against the EU and Armenia.

Well a lot of muslims in Quebec have lived or have families that currently lives in France, and while nothing is perfect here, far from it, I’ve been told the difference is like night and day.

I think it can be genuinely worried that France is creating fertile grounds for extremists to recruits potential murderers, and how it plays very well for both FN and those horrendous people.

Just what the thread needs a bunch of clueless American liberals showing up to tell the rest of us the world how they should be acting.

I don't see anyone disagreeing with that. My point was, how about we talk about that when there's an incident in which muslims are mistreated, instead of when a woman is beheaded in a church.

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, October 29, 2020 1:23 PM (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I’ll go back to the reflex I have developped, and seemingly some french people did to, I mentionned earlier.

Probably because you posted this in the context of a thread where numerous people had already accused several of us of condoning our excusing the atrocities, rather than looking at the symptoms.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive)
Posted: 29 October 2020 at 16:03:21
As a general rule, I don't take a beheading as an opportunity to contemplate whether the beheader may have a point about certain things. I used to engage in that exercise, but I don't anymore. I'm not giving the views someone who beheads a woman in church any space in my mind.

And then you went on to throw about several absurd accusations. Is it wrong to discuss the symptoms behind this kind of rot in a society?

Just what the thread needs a bunch of clueless American liberals showing up to tell the rest of us the world how they should be acting.

I'm using the UK definition.

Also I think ilxor is less grounds for mourning and more for discussions, so maybe it’s natural one topic is prefered.

So am I!

And I welcome the opinions and contributions of any american liberal.

I mean, is that demonstrably true? France also has a much larger muslim population than other countries that propaganda targets.

No, my evidence of this is anecdotal, from having ties to muslim communities in Germany (yes, I know there's been attacks there too) and from discussing the matter with the French side of my family. Happy to hear debunkings of this position, would be a better use of this thread than the shouting match going on right now.

My point was, how about we talk about that when there's an incident in which muslims are mistreated, instead of when a woman is beheaded in a church.

Is it so weird to you that when a horrid event like this happens people talk about how we could make it less likely to happen in the future? That's where this is coming from, not some perverse desire to think the terrorists are "right" or a hatred of France.

I'm a bit sensitive about listening to liberals on the subject of Islamist terrorism because we had years of Tony Blair et al saying any and every terrorist incident in the UK had nothing to UK foreign policy in Muslim countries and accusing anyone who disgreed as apologists and shutting down any discussion by monotonously intoning, "There's no excuse for terrorism".

I mean, I grew up watching everything over the border, and then when I moved here having the same experience whenever I brought up the grotesque human rights violations in NI to British people, so.

The armed man who was shot in #Avignon earlier today was *not* an Islamist. In fact, it seems like he was associated with the (far right) Identitarian Movement. https://t.co/V6mAxLSesJ

— Peter R. Neumann (@PeterRNeumann) October 29, 2020

My point was, how about we talk about that when there's an incident in which muslims are mistreated, instead of when a woman is beheaded in a church.

Just...one little interjection...isn't the "incident when muslims are mistreated" the, like, everyday thing that is happening and normalized and is not being talked about and is actually being invisible-ized by pretending that only one kind of identity is neutral? I mean we just had this whole conversation like a week ago.

xp okay well anyway

(xxp) I can think of a few places you'd have had a more appreciative audience.

I think people are able to compartmentalize an obvious tragedy and wider critiques of society that may have lead to the tragedy, all being respectful. I’m mean this is like right wing american politicians saying we shouldn’t politicize school massacre the moment people talk about gun control.

― Van Horn Street, Thursday, October 29, 2020 10:05 AM (twenty-eight minutes ago)

otm -- but I'm a clueless American, who is somehow able, even in my "liberalism" to see this. And also, even if it doesn't "prevent" terrorism, not being shitty to minorities and acknowledging the affects of colonialism, imperialism, and making reparatory gestures ... these are worthwhile things in and of themselves.

Holloway?

Turkish supporters of Erdogan in a suburb of Lyon, home to a large community of Armenians, are now warning these Armenians that they're going to kill them. Stay tuned for tomorrow's terrorist attacks throughout Europe.

https://www.leparisien.fr/faits-divers/on-va-tuer-les-armeniens-l-inquietante-montee-de-la-violence-des-groupuscules-radicaux-turcs-29-10-2020-8405607.php

I Love Humanity .... ugh

Perhaps we should ask the Armenians what they did wrong to the Turks and how they could prevent this next time

the desire to outlaw a deadly massacre tool after it's used in a deadly massacre is just like this. the terrorists used the absence of a social compact with religious minorities to...wait are we sure about this?

is there a french muslim here? i would be interested in their perspective.

if it were me, i would not want people to be talking about the legitimate interests and grievances of my community ONLY when someone from my community committed an atrocity. that seems awful. and it's also misrepresentative because the violence is carried out by a tiny, tiny sliver of extremists whose grievances are actually of a very different character than the average french muslim who faces discrimination.

also there was a white supremacist attack in france today too

The average french muslim is not a fan of the caricatures, very understandably so.

Also, the legitimacy of Islam in France is a topic discussed every other day in France, it's been in the background for as long as I remember politics. Plus, the french are a people prone to discussion and debate so... no it is only not discussed after attacks; perhaps it is in the anglo-sphere, but in France it's as common a discussion as racial prejudice is in the US.

if it were me, i would not want people to be talking about the legitimate interests and grievances of my community ONLY when someone from my community committed an atrocity.

Do you mean in French society or on ILX? ILX does talk about islamophobia in other instances, it prob doesn't do so much in the French context because, well, vast majority of posters don't live in France. Or are you referring to the French politics thread specifically?

If you're talking French society, yeah, it's a hot button issue at all times. Thus the rise of the FN.

ILX does talk about islamophobia in other instances

ILX is predominantly American and this doesn't seem to be subject that generates much interest in the US, hence treeship's tin-eared response.

i would not want people to be talking about the legitimate interests and grievances of my community ONLY when someone from my community committed an atrocity. that seems awful.

if you are a "real" fan of an artist's work, you should be talking about that artist all the time, and not just when they are about to release a new album or when said album gets reviewed on pitchfork.com

treeshie, people on ILX have a lot of things to talk about, and it's a message board where people talk with one another ... just because the discussion only tends to come up when there is an atrocity doesn't diminish or delegitimize the concern people have??? Plus, some of these things are not really enjoyable to post about every day for the sake of "consistency"? Like, less than a year ago there was like a mass shooting a day it seemed like in the U.S. ... did we discuss all of them? Do we have a "Daily Dose of American White Supremacy"? or "Black person killed by cops because racism" every day ??? It's emotionally exhausting, especially considering just because people aren't constantly posting about it, doesn't mean they aren't thinking about it.

BREAKING: Reports of a terrorist attack on the Vienna synagogue. One dead, several injured. Source: Ministry of the Interior https://t.co/q1TxIHTw6u

— Conflict News (@Conflicts) November 2, 2020

Fuck

Now hearing seven dead. Fuck, I used to live in Vienna and still have friends there.

"six different crime scenes" "several perpetrators"

it sounds horrific

This is the confirmed info atm

CONFIRMED at the moment:
*08:00 pm: several shots fired, beginning at Seitenstettengasse
*several suspects armed with rifles
*six different shooting locations
* one deceaced person, several injured (1 officer included)
*1 suspect shot and killed by police officers #0211w

— POLIZEI WIEN (@LPDWien) November 2, 2020

Lots of people (very prematurely) sharing that shooting in #Vienna is terror attack on a synagogue.
Jewish community leader below confirms synagogues were closed at time. It seems whatever has happened (and no official comment yet) may just have been in vicinity of synagogue. https://t.co/ps3c3oDg0B

— Michael Cowan (@mrmikecowan) November 2, 2020

Considering it's the jewish center of the city, I wouldn't be surprised if the attack was anti-semitic in nature.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jan/15/salman-rushdie-on-charlie-hebdo-freedom-of-speech-can-only-be-absolute
“The French satirical tradition has always been very pointed and very harsh, and still is, you know,” Rushdie said. “The thing that I really resent is the way in which these, our dead comrades ... who died using the same implement that I use, which is a pen or pencil, have been almost immediately vilified and called racists and I don’t know what else.”

pretty cool and still relevant.

I actually don't completely agree with him philosophically about freedom/freedom of speech, but I hate the impulse people have to "yes but" the murders of writers and cartoonists. To the extent that we are talking about "freedom" of speech in the sense that no one should die for their speech, then I 100% agree that freedom is indivisible.