Terrorist attacks throughout Europe

Apart from a new political settlement and social compact with religious minorities and immigrants you mean

But that’s not on offer

I reckon FN is inevitable, frankly

Last night the Sénat debated the loi de programmation pluriannuelle de la recherche (LPPR) that has been the target of so much anger against the Macron government by academics. The first six articles were approved, having already been approved by the Assemblée Nationale last month. But the Sénat decided to add to the law that « Les libertés académiques s’exercent dans le respect des valeurs de la République », singling out laïcité as one such value. I do not mean to approve or disapprove of this law here---that is a much broader and at the same time more provincial subject than terrorist attacks in Europe---but simply to note this addition to the law is an astonishing revision of academic freedom in France, and that no changes of the sort you are describing, Tracer Hand, are forthcoming any time soon.

No one should be killed during prayer. I know it’s obvious, but I’m hurting.

Meanwhile, the man who was until February prime minister of Malaysia today promoted genocide against French people, as a response to the colonial crimes of France. "The French in the course of their history has killed millions of people. Many were Muslims. Muslims have a right to be angry and to kill millions of French people for the massacres of the past."

As a general rule, I don't take a beheading as an opportunity to contemplate whether the beheader may have a point about certain things. I used to engage in that exercise, but I don't anymore. I'm not giving the views someone who beheads a woman in church any space in my mind.

former PM of malaysia might want to double-check his koran on that one

and the colonial history of Islam.

man alive otm

Not a single post itt has been about saying the murderers "have a point".

If you take the opportunity of a beheading to discuss grievances in some way connected to that beheading that's what you're doing

Apart from a new political settlement and social compact with religious minorities and immigrants you mean

But that’s not on offer

I reckon FN is inevitable, frankly

― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Thursday, October 29, 2020 11:17 AM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

i don't know if a more pluralistic and tolerant france would prevent fanatics from murdering people. i think it is good to move that way for its own sake though.

No, it's not, and it's asinine to suggest that. Analysing the factors that lead to a societal ill is not equivalent to defending that societal ill; it's looking at how to prevent it from happening again.

xpost

ok so it *is*true that alienation can drive people into the hands of fanatic groups, so it's better to create a society where alienation is less common. but it's also important to keep in mind that the terrorists aren't multiculturalist liberals who just "broke," they are religious fanatics killing infidels

Said it before, will say it again. The current approach isn’t working, do you clowns have any ideas that aren’t either dogwhistling send-em-back sentiment or what?

"a more pluralistic and tolerant france... it is good to move that way for its own sake though."

this is my position gyac

i'm not "dog-whistling" mass deportation. like, jesus

but it's also important to keep in mind that the terrorists aren't multiculturalist liberals who just "broke," they are religious fanatics killing infidels

Really feel like you're arguing with a strawman here treesh. No one is under the delusion that the killers used to be "multiculturalist liberals", it's just about acknowledging that fanatism, of any stripe, doesn't exist in a vacuum.

she wasn’t talking to you treesh

I’m absolutely never talking to you treeship given that I have you blocked, so don’t waste your breath.

ok so it *is*true that alienation can drive people into the hands of fanatic groups, so it's better to create a society where alienation is less common. but it's also important to keep in mind that the terrorists aren't multiculturalist liberals who just "broke," they are religious fanatics killing infidels

― treeship., Thursday, October 29, 2020 11:52 AM (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

OTM. I'm all for increasing tolerance, reducing alienation and economic immiseration, etc., but I don't think you can treat violent fundamentalists as though they are just plants and the failings of larger society were the soil, seed, water and light.

fanaticism exists in the long tail of human experience and behavior. it won't necessarily disappear if you change the distribution or shift the median. I think treeship is saying it's a bit gross to use shit in the long tail as leverage to argue for the shifts in median/distribution that we all want anyway.

If you think it’s a coincidence that it happens more in France than elsewhere I have a bridge to sell on la Loire.

this shit gets funded by oil billionaires from other countries, it doesn't just spring from between cracks in the sidewalk

lol well good luck getting the west to give up its dependence on cheap oil to maintain our way of life, if it were up to me I would have shifted to renewables decades ago to cut the legs from KSA as well as benefiting the planet but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

your relentless attempt to make a woman's beheading into the fruit of the west's original sin is gross

this shit gets funded by oil billionaires from other countries, it doesn't just spring from between cracks in the sidewalk

Might be a good idea to stop making it easier for them tho, no?

What a fucking lie, but it’s not as though you can actually refute the point of why KSA is rich in the first place so.

I think people are able to compartmentalize an obvious tragedy and wider critiques of society that may have lead to the tragedy, all being respectful. I’m mean this is like right wing american politicians saying we shouldn’t politicize school massacre the moment people talk about gun control.

no it's nothing like that at all

This is actually more the equivalent of a white supremacist shooting up a church and then having a thread where we discuss the opioid crisis in the shooter's community.

Extremism in minority communities isn’t motivated by the same factors as extremism in majority communities, but you know that, right?

what motivates extremism in Saudi Arabia?

This is actually more the equivalent of a white supremacist shooting up a church and then having a thread where we discuss the opioid crisis in the shooter's community.

Or, say, internet radicalization of young men, which is a relevant and valid thing to discuss in that context.

But we're not discussing the use of propaganda to radicalize young muslims, we're discussing why it's france's fault.

Extremism in minority communities isn’t motivated by the same factors as extremism in majority communities, but you know that, right?

― liberté, égalité, scampé (gyac), Thursday, October 29, 2020 12:08 PM (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink

This is complete bullshit. You are projecting your revolutionary leftist fantasy onto a right wing reactionary group.

Plus, I think part of the reflex for some french people is to not let the RN/FN dictate the terms of the discussion in the aftermath of such tragic situations.

French cultural norms are a big factor in helping that propaganda along; as others itt have said, it's not a coincidence that the same propaganda doesn't acquire as much purchase in other countries it targets.

xpost

xp a lot of projection itt, but none of this is mine. If you can’t make a non-strawman argument or reply without accusing fellow ilxors of obscene views they don’t hold, feel free to go.

do you clowns have any ideas that aren’t either dogwhistling send-em-back sentiment or what?

― liberté, égalité, scampé (gyac), Thursday, October 29, 2020 12:53 PM (twenty-one minutes ago)

If you can’t make a non-strawman argument or reply without accusing fellow ilxors of obscene views they don’t hold, feel free to go.

― liberté, égalité, scampé (gyac), Thursday, October 29, 2020 1:12 PM (two minutes ago)

This is actually more the equivalent of a white supremacist shooting up a church and then having a thread where we discuss the opioid crisis in the shooter's community.

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, October 29, 2020 1:06 PM (seven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I do not believe it’s such a coincidence white supremacy attacks and threats are more prevalent in the US than in some other western countries no.

I don't either! But I don't think it's for parallel reasons to what you're claiming about France.

French cultural norms are a big factor in helping that propaganda along; as others itt have said, it's not a coincidence that the same propaganda doesn't acquire as much purchase in other countries it targets.

xpost

― Daniel_Rf, Thursday, October 29, 2020 12:12 PM (four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I mean, is that demonstrably true? France also has a much larger muslim population than other countries that propaganda targets.

I’m 100% ready to be wrong on this, fwiw. I just think extremists in France were allowed to flourish for many reasons, I don’t see how the very poor treatment of the muslim minorities and the violence imposed on them couldn’t be one of them. Certainly, it would help to treat these minorities better.

I don't see anyone disagreeing with that. My point was, how about we talk about that when there's an incident in which muslims are mistreated, instead of when a woman is beheaded in a church.

France is also involved in what is until now only a war of words with Turkey over Turkey's search for natural gas in waters claimed by Greece, and for Turkey's support of Azerbaijan against Armenia. The worldwide rally against France this week in majority-Muslim countries is an attempt to use the debate over whether French people should have freedom of expression as a means to advance Turkey's agenda against the EU and Armenia.

Well a lot of muslims in Quebec have lived or have families that currently lives in France, and while nothing is perfect here, far from it, I’ve been told the difference is like night and day.

I think it can be genuinely worried that France is creating fertile grounds for extremists to recruits potential murderers, and how it plays very well for both FN and those horrendous people.

Just what the thread needs a bunch of clueless American liberals showing up to tell the rest of us the world how they should be acting.

I don't see anyone disagreeing with that. My point was, how about we talk about that when there's an incident in which muslims are mistreated, instead of when a woman is beheaded in a church.

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, October 29, 2020 1:23 PM (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I’ll go back to the reflex I have developped, and seemingly some french people did to, I mentionned earlier.

Probably because you posted this in the context of a thread where numerous people had already accused several of us of condoning our excusing the atrocities, rather than looking at the symptoms.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive)
Posted: 29 October 2020 at 16:03:21
As a general rule, I don't take a beheading as an opportunity to contemplate whether the beheader may have a point about certain things. I used to engage in that exercise, but I don't anymore. I'm not giving the views someone who beheads a woman in church any space in my mind.

And then you went on to throw about several absurd accusations. Is it wrong to discuss the symptoms behind this kind of rot in a society?