Terrorist attacks throughout Europe

You'd never believe it from this thread but I think there may be some middle ground to stand on here. I don't necessarily think it's awful that the French ground their state in "republicain" principles of liberty, equality, secularism, universal rights etc., regardless of how these things ultimately get instrumentalised, which they of course do. I mean, it beats fealty to hereditary monarch who is head of a national church.

that's a bog standard false equivalence argument if I've ever seen one.

anyway to hell with with the middle ground, my currency is death threats and actual murder and that is a fucking FACT!

How has fealty to a hereditary monarch who is head of a national church affected your life lately? Anyway, if you're from Scotland there is no national church!

It was a bit of a flip comment, but I do think fealty to a hereditary monarch who is head of a national church affects people's lives!

It's not like the French republican model as implemented is the only option here; and I say that as a Canadian, whose monarch is head of a national church, but it's not *our* national church. Otherwise, it's pretty anodyne to argue that the abstract values of liberty, equality, etc are generally redeemable.

Of course it isn't that these abstract values are irredeemable, but since the US and much of western Europe have been proclaiming those values while actively working toward opposite ends is manifest in everything about the way the world works.

Maybe time to think about how those values are instrumentalized, and how the language of such values is deployed as well. Mbembe writes about this very movingly in the second chapter of Necropolitics

Tom D and calzino are big fans of Necropolitics amirite? (sorry joeks)

He's probably one of the most accessible philosophers writing today, I think everyone should read him.

I've got no idea what you're talking about and I've got no idea why you're linking me with calzino, I've never wished death on anyone on ILX, unlike 99% of American ILXors over the past four years.

I don't what to think about Necropolitics until I've read Jimmy Savile's cold-take on it.

xp - I was making a joke about Euler's post which did so ... sheesh tough crowd

I lolled

I’m sorry Tom D, I had thought you were angry about the banning of a poster who’d been making death threats but I don’t even know anymore

I don't think this clown actually knows what a death threat is, but he's not the only one tbf!

(xp) I could explain more but I'd be FPed to death. ILX isn't the place for any kind of dissent anymore so I'm just here for the Singing Drummers threads, getting involved in this thread was a mistake.

yeah, again I’m sorry for mischaracterizing you. I thought you were being unusually grumpy on threads since whatever happened and it was bumming me out because I like your posts usually

ILX isn't the place for any kind of dissent anymore

I find that posting a dissenting opinion or differing perspective often draws fire on ILX, but about 90% of it consists of the tactic called "label and dismiss". That sucks, but it is so damn common you just have to figure it in as inevitable.

I tend to think that if I convey my thoughts clearly enough that others are likely to understand them, then I have done what I wished to do. Their effect on others is not within my control. When I persist in posting further in response to criticism, it is generally because someone has misconstrued my idea and distorted what I hoped to convey. Then I try to repair the misconstruction and clarify my thought.

If others being critical of the conclusions you've drawn or opinions you express on ILX is something you find unwelcome or unnerving, then I guess it makes sense to stop posting them, because it isn't the job of ILXors to confine themselves validating your opinions. It's only our job to be not assholes about it, and ILX is much better at that than most of the internet.

idk

tell us what you really think, treesh. oh, sorry, you did.

ILX is much better at that than most of the internet.

― the unappreciated charisma of cows (Aimless), Monday, October 26, 2020 4:42 PM (three hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

absolutely.

feel like ilx should be a safe space for people to share their fantasies of the death of western civ

I'm OK with brief generalized effusions of enmity at public figures. when the fantasies get personal, violent, and weirdly specific with ott details I have a sudden desire to not be shared with to that extent.

One thing about France is that a lot of french people take it personally when you criticize France, no matter where they are on the political spectrum. It's not a behaviour reserved to the patriotic right like in the US or the UK. And irl (more so than here), I've find it hard to defend my views about systemic racism in France without having to justify either my love of France or something similar.

It's always good to get the absolute clarity of the verbosely prevaricating (but saying fuck all of substance) Mr Logic take on acceptable ways of wishing death on bad politicians, thanx for that aimless M8!

(xp) Euler isn't French yet.

you're welcome, calz.

wow who are the 1% american posters haven't wished death on other posters, that's a really interesting statistic.

I told THE AMAZING RANDY to play in traffic once.

his last words were "HI DE-"

One thing about France is that a lot of french people take it personally when you criticize France, no matter where they are on the political spectrum. It's not a behaviour reserved to the patriotic right like in the US or the UK. And irl (more so than here), I've find it hard to defend my views about systemic racism in France without having to justify either my love of France or something similar.

I don't think this is a peculiarity of France tbh, I've known ppl who are generally quite sound on the problems of their country get wound up when an outsider points them out all over.

a/k/a FBS, the Fred B Syndrome

Three people have been killed in a knife attack in the French city of Nice, police say.

Nice Mayor Christian Estrosi said there had been a "terrorist attack at the heart of the Notre-Dame basilica".

One elderly victim who had come to pray was "virtually beheaded". The suspect was detained shortly after the attack.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54729957

Yeah just saw that, fucking diabolical.

that's horrific

A person supposedly carrying a knife in Avignon has been killed by police, an hour after the Nice-attack.

carrying waving

One thing about France is that a lot of french people take it personally when you criticize France, no matter where they are on the political spectrum. It's not a behaviour reserved to the patriotic right like in the US or the UK. And irl (more so than here), I've find it hard to defend my views about systemic racism in France without having to justify either my love of France or something similar.

I don't think this is a peculiarity of France tbh, I've known ppl who are generally quite sound on the problems of their country get wound up when an outsider points them out all over.

― Daniel_Rf, Tuesday, October 27, 2020 6:12 AM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink

Happens to me (an outsider) here in Netherlands all the time.

I’m glad we’re going into lockdown tomorrow, because attacks like these today are terrifying, as is their intent, and the global boycotts and protests against France are fanning the flame. Lockdown means fewer people out hopefully.

Another person who told his father he was going to “do like in Nice” has just been arrested in Sartrouville. There is no exit from this.

Apart from a new political settlement and social compact with religious minorities and immigrants you mean

But that’s not on offer

I reckon FN is inevitable, frankly

Last night the Sénat debated the loi de programmation pluriannuelle de la recherche (LPPR) that has been the target of so much anger against the Macron government by academics. The first six articles were approved, having already been approved by the Assemblée Nationale last month. But the Sénat decided to add to the law that « Les libertés académiques s’exercent dans le respect des valeurs de la République », singling out laïcité as one such value. I do not mean to approve or disapprove of this law here---that is a much broader and at the same time more provincial subject than terrorist attacks in Europe---but simply to note this addition to the law is an astonishing revision of academic freedom in France, and that no changes of the sort you are describing, Tracer Hand, are forthcoming any time soon.

No one should be killed during prayer. I know it’s obvious, but I’m hurting.

Meanwhile, the man who was until February prime minister of Malaysia today promoted genocide against French people, as a response to the colonial crimes of France. "The French in the course of their history has killed millions of people. Many were Muslims. Muslims have a right to be angry and to kill millions of French people for the massacres of the past."

As a general rule, I don't take a beheading as an opportunity to contemplate whether the beheader may have a point about certain things. I used to engage in that exercise, but I don't anymore. I'm not giving the views someone who beheads a woman in church any space in my mind.

former PM of malaysia might want to double-check his koran on that one

and the colonial history of Islam.

man alive otm

Not a single post itt has been about saying the murderers "have a point".

If you take the opportunity of a beheading to discuss grievances in some way connected to that beheading that's what you're doing

Apart from a new political settlement and social compact with religious minorities and immigrants you mean

But that’s not on offer

I reckon FN is inevitable, frankly

― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Thursday, October 29, 2020 11:17 AM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

i don't know if a more pluralistic and tolerant france would prevent fanatics from murdering people. i think it is good to move that way for its own sake though.

No, it's not, and it's asinine to suggest that. Analysing the factors that lead to a societal ill is not equivalent to defending that societal ill; it's looking at how to prevent it from happening again.

xpost