long-time reader first-time bread-maker

That looks wonderful

i am going to make some loaves this weekend. have been feeding my starter regularly to get it ready instead of what has become my habit of just every few days. i want to put in some seeds, maybe one rye with caraway and one with sunflower. does it absorb too much of the water or do i just add them without worrying about that? also looking for some new flour ratios. i have whole grain spelt and rye.

by weekend i mean wednesday because i am only working today and tomorrow #veterans

ok i have discovered you need to soak the seeds. i am looking forward to this seedy adventure.

i made a pretty good rye, caraway, beer and honey loaf from claudia roden’s Book of Jewish Food at the weekend. i think it needed to be slightly more hydrated but it tasted great.

Oh, we have that book! What would you do different next time?

so the recipe says to add only enough beer 'to make a dough that holds together.'

i took that pretty literally (and followed the quantity guidance, which was 125ml water, ~350ml of beer - so very low hydration), but i the dough was just too dry and crumbly (and absolute murder to knead). I'd add slightly more liquid to get a more elastic dough next time. she does say in the next paragraph not to add too much flour in the kneading stage as the dough is intended to be 'a little sticky compared with white bread dough,' so i was a bit wtf Claudia make up your mind.

weekend sourdough here - heavily floured because FUCK ME it keeps sticking, which makes. me. mad.

https://i.imgur.com/RtWhMqi.jpeg

slightly crumbly rough looking rye here:

https://i.imgur.com/yTuqABW.jpeg

(smells and tastes great mind)

Yeah I was thinking when I was reading that that the fragrance alone would make it a really nice bread (for someone else in the house) to make especially as it’s pretty cold rn. As ever, your sourdough looks very good!

made this, https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/recipes/kansas-sunflower-bread-recipe , just came out of oven 30 min ago so i haven't cut into it yet. instead of 361g white bread flour i did 201g AP flour, 80g white whole wheat, 80g spelt (i believe this flour is "sprouted" but i'm kind of confused by the label from the bulk place). i always get dough that is too wet from these recipes, it won't even make a ball in the mixer, added back another 1/2 cup or more of AP flour. it looks like a very tall loaf, the tallest i've ever made, so i don't think anything went wrong.

ok here is photo.
https://i.imgur.com/Nr2fq8E.jpeg
great-tasting bread, perfect density, but a bit crumbly. probably because of aforementioned flour adding. i'm just afraid of very wet dough. but this was not just very wet, it was way too wet. no one would have been able to knead it. i am going to try letting it sit after mixing next time. especially with the whole grains. this would be a nice tuna fish sandwich or grilled cheese bread. i just toasted it and had it with some peach jam.

yum

that is amazing.

kept on forgetting to feed my starter so instead have been making (very nice) rye, beer and honey bread.

did make my first batch of sourdough for the first time in a while over the weekend though. i fluffed it a bit, so it hasn't risen as much as i'd've liked, and the first loaf could have done with longer in the oven, but on the whole am quite pleased.

https://i.imgur.com/yO68uSJ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ePN4O2A.jpg

most importantly of all, it tastes great, with the crust approaching the taste of my favourite bought sourdough (before they shut down).

wow that crumb is gorgeous.

you're courageous to prove straight in the banneton with no liner! early in my baking adventures i got burned a couple of times and never went back. i should though. those bullseye patterns are so nice.

this book just came out. it's great. a bit of a history of the bakery, pictures of impossibly attractive young people making bread yada yada but the back half of the book lays it all out there. the nuts and bolts of every variation on sourdough you can think of, and some others besides. i took a day-long lesson there a couple of years ago and the person teaching us said their philosophy is that 'there are no secrets in bread baking'.

https://e5bakehouse.com/e5-book/

thanks tracer, yes, i was pleased with the crumb, given it didn't rise as much as i'd hoped. after really losing my shit with my carefully constructed loaves *sticking* whether on cloth or direct in a banneton, and spending ages on the internet trying to work out how to stop this happening, I have decided the key is... use a shit-tonne of flour. you can always brush it off before it goes in the oven if necessary (though the above ones have worked out fine without brushing). Also, if your bannetons are relatively new, worth spraying them on the inside with water and roughing them up a bit a few times so that when they're dry the flour sticks on all parts of the basket.

book recommendation looks good. it's really helpful when people avoid mystique and are just very clear on hints and tips etc. very easy for skilled people to get a bit 'guild secrets' about these things, or 'this is the way it *should* work' when experience teaches you something different.

Couple of things I'd rectify next time:
1) don't put them in the bannetons upside down, so that you have to take them out and put them back in the correct way up (which is upside down confusingly). I think this broke some of the structure hence them being flatter than i would have liked
2) i just think they need longer in the dutch oven. it's not creating as much steam as I'd like before I take the lid off to get the crust.
3) Oh and my structuring isn't always great. I think this is partly to do with the instructions I'm using which are fine if you want an oblong but not if you want a circular loaf. The 'creating tension against the seam' bit just isn't working for me at the moment.

Things I still don't really understand.
* They're not really *springing* up, so that where you've made the cuts you get a nice explosion. With yeasted loaves I'd've said I'd overproved them, but i don't think that's the case for sourdough? It may be an issue to do with structure or indeed that initial oven temperature.

first thing is i’d make sure your starter has enough oomph. at one point i realised that if i refresh it the night before making the leaven it has a lot more power. i just refresh and stick in fridge.

you should put them in the bannetons upside down i.e. seam side up so that you can plop them onto a piece of parchment paper by just turning over the banneton. i’ve learned you don’t actually have to be gentle on this step! you can really just whack them out plop. you do need to score them and get them into your dutch oven or into a baking stone pretty quickly though because they will spread.

in the pics i can see that they crusted over a bit early - they haven’t got that really explosive “ear” that is the proof if you like of a good spring. two things on this 1)you need maximum amount of steam, like you say. give it a good 20 minutes, even 25 in the dutch oven with the lid on. 2) you might consider adjusting your oven to just use the bottom heating element for those 20 minutes so that the tops of your loaves don’t get too hot too quickly and crust over. with a dutch oven i’d think that wouldn’t be a problem because the lid would provide some protection but something to try maybe.

for shaping a circular loaf i get my hands floury and sort of twist the dough on the counter, any direction you like, which usually plumps it up a little bit. you may need a scraper to help along any little bits. then you can lift an edge of this mass, stretching up and then folding towards the center and kind of poking it into the middle. like a flower petal sort of, that’s shutting itself down for the night. do that all the way around so you’ve got a little package. may need the scraper to help with this. and use your scraper to help lift that off the counter and you can lay in the banneton just like that, with your flower petal seams on top. i usually like to lay it first in some dusting flour before the banneton just to make sure it’s got a good layer there.

for pre-shaping your “boules”, this guy is my god:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEG1BjWroT0

i don’t do what he does for the final shape, but his pre-shape is so unbelievably satisfying and efficient and it’s not hard to get down.

one big tip for that pre-shape? put ZERO flour on your countertop. this will help create that tension you need. otherwise it just slides around.

Soda bread in our house today, came out just right

https://i.imgur.com/3a3tb9f.jpg

Nice, texture looks great. Is that a mix or did you have a recipe?

Uh id need to ask the house tbh, shes currently waspish over an email tho

Oh i read the question again, no shes mixing her own from some recipe

Nice loaves fizzles! On the mystery lack of spring - Tracer otm about making sure your starter is at the right point & lively. Maybe try cutting proofing time too, just to check on the over-proofing? Or work the dough a bit more early on to develop gluten and build the strength to handle the proof.

That is a very useful pre-shape video Tracer - I've generally just done 'shaping, but less so', but will try that pushing-around with the scraper next time.

I've found shaping the hardest part to nail. It's got better incrementally with a few factors changing - mature starter, I've got better at building strength, learnt how to handle dough better (flour hands over and over, don't be timid with it and work quickly - treat it like you're confidently handling something very hot, I read somewhere).

I used to go seam side up in the banneton, but I was reading the Forkish book late last year and he says seam side down, bake with seam side up. I've been trying it - not sure there's a huge difference. Slightly better crumb in the middle maybe.

Had been thinking about getting a thinner crust & got lost in this thread yesterday. Fascinating gluten knowledge.
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/54803/chasing-thin-crispy-not-thicktough-dough

Other random notes -
I've been giving it 30 minutes in the dutch oven, at the oven top temp (which says 260 but is more like 230 from the oven thermometer I bought to investigate), then ~20 with eyeballing with the lid off. I actually don't really know what difference the lid on/lid off split makes - ie, what does less steam do?
Relatedly, I have gone from 'haha baking nerds measuring temperatures, f that, it's probably about right' to monitoring several thermometers.

getting rid of the steam means crust will start to form. 20 minutes or so is about right. if you did, say 40 mins of steam and 15 mins without then your bread will be 'done' but your crust won't be a nice deep golden brown

yeah floury hands for shaping - but wet hands for stretching/folding!

Thank tracer - makes sense when put that simply. One of those things I want to experiment with - I don't really get things till I've f'ed around with them a bit.

on starter comments - yeah my starter this time around was v borderline imo because i’d been forgetting to feed it. almost threw it away but decided to go ahead and pleased i did. but yes, can see how that would be an issue for spring.

i enjoy the initial shaping process, a bit of swishing around and tension building. v nice pre-shaping technique in the video and will go for that approach next time.

woof - your temperature comments feel right for my (very bad) oven (ie lower than it should be). i’m going to extend the dutch oven phase a bit longer and see what happens. also dig out my oven thermometer.

i used to use an oven thermometer but it just stressed me out tbh. now what i do is 1) steam phase: maximum heat for at least 45 mins BEFORE putting in the bread. the whole appliance retains its heat better like this, so that when you open the door to put in your dough it can recover quicker. bake for 20 mins or so. like i said above i usually change to just bottom element for this part, but i use a stone rather than a dutch oven. 2) dry phase: turn down to 230C until it gets the right shade of brown. for me this is usually another 35 minutes but i like it really dark. i also remove the parchment paper for this phase so the bottom gets nice and brown.

crunchier crust tip: once you’re finished baking, leave the loaf in the oven for 10 mins after you’ve turned the heat off.

if you want to bake on a stone, you can put a pan of boiling water in the bottom of the oven about 10 mins before putting in the dough, and leave it there until the dry phase.

worth saying some people don’t turn down the heat for the dry phase, and bake for less time. they just keep it blasting. if i do that my loaves are a little gummy inside.

ALL OF THAT SAID fizzles your bread is beautiful and the crumb looks sensational and i bet it tastes great

ha ha it *is* great but i love the tips and am looking forward to applying them all and coming back here when things aren’t quite satisfactory for more tips until it is PERFECT.

worth saying some people don’t turn down the heat for the dry phase, and bake for less time. they just keep it blasting. if i do that my loaves are a little gummy inside.

Thanks for this tip, tracer. I had done this the last few times because I liked the brown crust, but was getting some gumminess so I think I will stop.

yeah! if you reduce the heat to about 230C and bake for maybe 10-15 minutes longer than you usually do that should get you there. i too like it very 'bien cuit'

by the way, my last two loaves i pre-shaped and left of the counter for the usual 20 minutes or so before final shape and into the bannetons.. except.. i ended up playing two and a half hours of NBA2K21. i let out a yelp when i went to the kitchen. the dough had developed a bit of a skin. i shaped as normal, put into the bannetons, which went straight into the frige, baked the next morning per usual.... and they were absolutely fine

suggest banneton

haha had an almost identical experience a couple of months ago after deciding to find out what World of Warcraft was like nowadays.

by no means perfect - the leaven was somewhat lacking in... jouissance, so it's not quite as buoyant as i'd like, and it's overfloured, but this loaf is great. crust is crackly and delicious as is the crumb. tracer's shaping video is really great for the pre-shape, and decided on woof's timings of half an hour in dutch oven and 15 minutes uncovered.

because the leaven hadn't risen quite as much as i'd hoped in the morning, i gave it another couple of hours in a warm area. this didn't make it any more bouncy as such, in fact it became a rather elasticated, not v holey substance, so i was worried about the outcome. i've heard i think that the longer you leave the leaven the more sour your bread tastes? If that's the case the leaven may not have been great for bounce, but was fantastic for taste.

https://i.imgur.com/nDnsEls.jpg?1
https://i.imgur.com/xgEQKxG.jpg

that looks EXCELLENT

yeah the “aeration” in there is magnificent

Looks great, bet it will toast really well in a few days when you’re down to the last of it

it’s nice getting back into the rhythm of doing a loaf a week habitually. really got to work on my final boule shaping which is a bit slapdash (surreptitiously looks to tracer for more magic videos or tips).

might start trying some other loaves and options soon as well.

Slightly frustrated - my head's not in the game. Just went back to Forkish's White bread with poolish - which I've successfully made a few times & is delicious - and had a flat disaster. Barely any rise.
Unripe poolish I think - normally I'd wait & maybe give it a little heat but I just threw it in, barely checking.
Now I must eat a dense, ugly loaf before I can trying again. This is my punishment.

the only way to learn is to eat the mess you’ve made, no question.

I neglected my starter in the run up to xmas, thought I got it going again but baked over the weekend and it felt closer to a ciabatta rather than a boule. Think I need to keep feeding that little dude even more than I thought.

people say you can let it go a month but ime if you leave it longer than maybe 10 days you really have to work to get it strong and active again

We were away for a few days after Christmas. Forgot to put the starter in the fridge & I suspect the kids had the heating on full blast, because there was pink mould on top once I got back. No smell, and very liquid. Seemed dead.

Got a couple of tbsp from the bottom and fed it a good mix of wholewheat, white and rye. Nothing after 24 hours. Tried to convince myself that it would be healthy and unsentimental to start a new starter from scratch & that I should get better at baking with instant yeast anyway.

But then! Tiny little bubbles the next day. Took about a week to actually recover, but it's alive & is baking as well as ever.

Taken it as a warning - I slowed down on baking since I got a dog, but I enjoy it & I was so glum when I thought the starter was gone. Made me realise I need to pick up the rhythm again.

(& of course I discarded & fed every day till it was back to its usual winter self - sluggish, 8-10 hours to ripen)

pink pink pink pink
pink mold