Terrorist attacks throughout Europe

I think that part of the conversation here is that there is clearly a segment of French culture that allows for an atmosphere where such malign actions, intentional or unintentional, can flourish.

And another part of the conversation is that as long as that atmosphere persists, there will be horrific incidents such as the one in question. That isn't blaming the victim-- it's understanding the way that structures of culture and reactions against it work in the world

It’s not not blaming the victim

Whatever, I truly don't care about anything you say.

Feeling even more validated now tbh.

After slamming “Islamo-leftism,” France’s education minister has a new interview out today: “There’s a combat to be led” against an intellectual framework coming from US universities and intersectionality, which go against France’s republican model https://t.co/wX3Gk159mi pic.twitter.com/hpyiXjKeMp

— Cole Stangler (@ColeStangler) October 25, 2020

They might do a better job of peeling off some of those FN votes if they weren’t so coy about peddling this shit. Ofc all the fascists approvingly qting it will never vote for them when they can vote for the real deal, but as long as they can hide behind the values of the republic then there’s no problem. 🙃

jesus christ

Opposition to USA-style identity politics is widespread here. That’s not the difference between the FN and LREM e.g.

There's an important clue in the way the phrase "identity politics" others all identities beyond the bourgeois monoculture

"you have identity politics, we have the universal rights of man"

Lol just using “identity politics” is such a red flag in itself, literally denying the impact people’s ethnicity/gender/race etc has on their lives, but sure, liberty equality and brotherhood. Rich man and poor man are both forbidden alike from sleeping under bridges, after all.

I’m glad you’re such an expert in French life to know how identity politics functions here. I have so much to learn from you about where I live!

Tell me about how to treat poor people, British residents.

Hey Euler, either add us to your lengthy blocklist or explain why the ideas are fine and not bigoted. I notice you had nothing to say about Aimless’s clueless interjections, which was all fine as he was agreeing with you of course.

Tell me about how to treat poor people, British residents.

Gone native I see.

I had no time to read this thread over the week so I don’t know what Aimless said.

This is the terrorism in Europe thread. If you want to attack France, which I mean sounds fun! maybe try another thread?

gyac , I mean you live in a country devoted to the rawest capitalism, and may well be bougie yourself as a London resident. I live in social housing in one of the poorest neighborhoods in Paris. But yet you’re saying that France treats rich and poor the same. That’s ignorant bullshit and you should be ashamed.

Personally I'm not attacking France any more than my hatred of other western governments and/or polities means I'm attacking those countries per se

That’s not what I’m saying at all, if you must take the most overly literal impression then that’s not my problem. Also, I don’t live in London and your repeated insistence on calling me a “British resident” as though my life as an Irish person in the UK is entirely irrelevant to what I might think about the othering of groups of people - well, it’s quite the thing, isn’t it? I’m sure there are no suspect motives there or anything.

I think we need a Mon Père's Bigger Than Ton Père thread.

On the « terrorist attacks throughout Europe » I would have hatred of terrorism might have had more of a place than yet another place to gripe about how awful western governments are, but ILX, do you, I guess

gyac don’t you have a BDS rally to attend?

Wow

If you want to attack France, which I mean sounds fun! maybe try another thread?

idk France has been attacked and conquered quite a lot in the last 100+ years ... it's feels too much like punching down tbh

maybe we *should* start a "colonialism is a boon to all the benighted peoples of the world" thread, fair enough, i'm out

Wow

and sure Noodle Vague there’s no difference between “the beheading of a schoolteacher is bad” and “colonialism is good”, cool posts

While there may be a bit of "Fred B-ing" here from non-French posters, I feel like the majority of criticism isn't of France, but of right-wing or centrist attitudes and policies and the lingering affects of colonialism and Western imperialism, which are prevalent in the U.S. and the U.K. and the same posters decrying it in this thread, tend to be equally (if not more so) critical of it in re their own countries.

_Wow_


on the “you have suspect motives” tip...

on the “you have suspect motives” tip...
― All cars are bad (Euler), Sunday, October 25, 2020 11:27 AM (four minutes ago)

is there something I'm "missing" here, because I don't see any suspect motives on gyac's part, other than general concern for respectful treatment of marginalized people and the poor?

ok one more. nobody on this thread said anything other than that murder was an atrocity. there is a discussion to be had about the ways in which official French notions of monoculture serve to contribute to a racist society which creates the petri dish for appalling acts of inexcusable violence on all sides. when people have made this argument you've not engaged with it Euler save to insist, with no real argument to back it up, that the post-revolutionary settlement is neither colonialist or discriminatory. maybe that goes on another thread, sure. but if you insist on not addressing the issues people have raised then sometimes conversations get fraught, for better or worse.

That's the problem with ILX these days, not enough people are patriotic about and supportive of the countries they live in.

actually maybe what's yanking my chain worst of all is that i read you as implicitly saying that laïcité, liberté, égalité, fraternité are somehow neutral values which exist in some purer realm to trivial contingencies like "identity". if i'm wrong in reading you that way i apologise but i haven't seen you argue otherwise

xp isn't that what the Real England thread is for?

if there's one thing you can say about him, it's that Euler's constant

American ILX has traditionally been very patriotic about their snack foods and culinary traditions to the point of ridiculing advocates of UnAmerican pizza toppings

I mean I don't know what your man wants, apart from people to stop replying to the (stupid) debate he started upthread about the veil with points that aren't agreeing with him. All I'm after is some honesty and engagement with the basic points here - poster Euler has outright said or implied that several of us replying are excusing murder and/or antisemitic. I have always felt a lot more kinship with France for various reasons (I've spent a good chunk of time there in various parts, my mother speaks French, the French and us have a lot of history) and the notion I (alone) should defer to an American living in France is strange, to be quite frank. If the only arguments poster Euler has are these flailing straw man arguments, then he needs to add me to his blocklist, or start a thread on I Must Protest! because surely if people here actually held the views he's so keen to pin on us, we would be going against the site's rules?

The whole point of me sarcastically alluding to that Anatole France bit was that the idea of equality, fraternity and liberty is a joke if some of its demands are unrealistic or impossible. xps to NV

gyac I don’t want to block you because I think I can learn from you! I only block stupid people and you’re not. But when you go for my throat, calling me stupid, insane, Islamophobic, it pisses me off. I work with, live among, am friends with, many Muslims, observant and not, and have spent considerable time in countries with almost entirely Muslim population. I never meant to defend the policy against the wearing of religious symbols in public offices, including schools. I meant to observe that they’re thought to be an effort for the secularism of French public life, and that that latter aim is one I agree with. I have responded to you at length, until today with grace, and you refuse to see me as anything but Marine Le Pen. I’m tired with that.

I feel like there's a thing that happens on ILX in cases where one (or a very small number) of posters have vastly more intimate knowledge of someone/something at issue and that poster (or posters) end up in the role of "explainer" or "translator" in the sense of "facts on the ground" or "what were people thinking" ... and then the translator poster(s) end up in a position where they end up defending the beliefs or actions of those they initially were just trying to translate or explain to other posters who are from elsewhere. ... And just the way that ILX discussion works, it's difficult to extricate oneself from that role.

calling me stupid, insane, Islamophobic

until today with grace

I believe detailing systemic racism in France and how it plays a role in the series of attacks we have witnessed, is not a dishonest ‘attack’ on France.

Also, it is just very frustrating when well meaning people can’t see that the républicain views on race and multiculturalism are self-defeating at best, and FN promoting at worst. You don’t need to be an expert or even live in France to see something is off. What’s more, from the point of view of someone who navigates french culture and north american culture on a daily basis, it really seems like the opposition to intersectional modes of thinking is nothing else than pure snobbery.

I like both gyac and Euler a lot as posters and their argument here is bumming me out. Try and be good to each other regardless.

NB I don't know enough about these topics to weigh in too much, but I can identify with statements on both sides. Due to my upbringing and other factors I would gladly see every religion in the world pass into non-existence, the sooner the better. On the other hand I absolutely agree with the argument that in practice anti-religion measures in France and elsewhere seem a vestige of colonialism and to target populations already marginalized.

And from my experience, french intersectional voices are getting louder and louder.

gyac I haven’t tried to misconstrue you, but that doesn’t mean I didn’t. I haven’t responded to everything you’ve written, because I don’t want to work that hard! But I didn’t mean to pick only on what would make me look good, I’m not posting to “win” but to understand things better. If you’d like I’ll try to find time to back to the original post you’re talking about, in the near future.

On the “I’m not calling you islamaphobic” thing: then what is your insinuation about my “sinister motives” or whatever? That’s why I made the BDS comment: I certainly remember your partner saying that they’d be boycotting the Eurovision finals in Tel Aviv, and I was disappointed by that. I figured you were likely on the same page as them on that issue.

That’s quite a weird thing to hold onto tbh, especially when he made one passing comment of that nature and was commenting on the final in the thread ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ let alone the, whatever you want to call it, of holding me to account for my husband’s opinions...?

I don’t know your gender or, until now, his. I simply supposed that differences over political views of that sort are generally difficult to accept within a relationship.

I have paid attention to your views and his on antisemitism in the UK, and his revelation confirmed to me what side he was on, at least.

Charmant.

Tom D, are you unhappy that this isn’t another thread for you to celebrate death threats against politicians?