Friend Infected With Right Wing Brain Worms - What to Do?

and yet the police are never happy when I make that argument about all the people I killed...

What drives me up the wall too is that he spoke of Trump's 'attitude saine' ('healthy/sane attitude') towards covid, which sounds like pure trolling yet isn't – he buys into this shit hook, line and sinker. And the whole 'sheeple' thing ('vous [my wife and I] n'êtes que des moutons') makes it even dumber and more predictable. All of this coming from a man who is otherwise intelligent and educated and who has been unwavering in his commitment to the left since his youth. Bah (aka baaaa, amirite?).

And the whole 'sheeple' thing ('vous [my wife and I] n'êtes que des moutons') makes it even dumber and more predictable. All of this coming from a man who is otherwise intelligent and educated and who has been unwavering in his commitment to the left since his youth.

If I can take a crack at this, I think of it as something along the lines of 'Covid policy has lead to increased inequality and wealth concentration, its a real thing but is it as dangerous as we originally thought? Tons of people die anyway just looking at raw figures doesnt tell whole story. People's willingness to go along and accept the above including expanded police powers to enforce that they might not give up is fairly docile'

I think you can construct something like the above without going anywhere near right wing territory (one for the left wing worm thread?)

That's a very charitable reading, but then again, I forgot to mention that he's a complete luddite and the pandemic is also an excuse for him to flex his hypochondriac muscles. It's a perfect storm of things he finds terrifying and which he (deliberately) makes no effort whatsoever to comprehend: the state, medicine and technology. When push comes to shove, he's really just an aged hippy who was too much of a wuss in his late teens/early 20s to hop on that train wholesale and who is now striving to make up for it before it's too late. And yeah, this isn't quite the right thread for him – Trump's supposedly 'sane approach' is what threw me over the edge when pondering where to post this.

One more thing: he's been living alone for decades now and has recently become closer to one of his brothers, who is the Real Deal: a certified chemtrails/UFO/séance/anti-vaxxer/survivalist/antisemite/covidiot/truther (and I'm probably forgetting lots), so I suspect that this radical turn towards increasingly more batshit ideas is partly due to crazy bro's influence. Tbh that whole part of the family is just messed up – there are a lot of underlying psychiatric issues that I won't get into but whose causes are mostly known to me, so that's always at the back of my mind when I'm interacting with him.

Found out that a cousin-in-law of mine, older guy, has gone Q (or some kind of Obama-related conspiracy theory about how they're all out to get Trump, this came to me third hand.) Probably in his late 70s, nice affable guy every time I met him, well-educated, not a guy you'd think of as going haywire. Heard this in the context of him and his wife splitting their votes. It's the wife I feel sad for, imagine this happening to your spouse and knowing this is probably gonna be what the rest of your life looks like. Maybe they just don't talk about it.

I don’t actually know if people are asking “what to do?” anymore so much as just blowing off steam when this happens to someone they know?

But Whitney Phillips shared this, this morning, which she contributed to, on techniques that work and don’t work when addressing it:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/25/opinion/qanon-conspiracy-theories-family.html

Some stuff which has been discussed in this thread, some stuff that hasn’t.

Here is an observation, based on the past few months that I have spent back on ILX, not directed at anyone individually, nor a comment on anyone on ILX, (because I genuinely don't think that there are any genuinely right-wing people *left* on ILX, just various different flavours of left, some of whom definitely have hobby-horses or left-wing brain worms of our own, who see different solutions, or even just different priorities around what needs to be fixed, or indeed fixed first.)

So this is just an observation about human dynamics, formed while watching (and participating in) groups of people who are supposed to be on the same "side" trying and sometimes failing / sometimes succeeding at trying to change people's opinions or change people's minds.

That there are two kinds of approaches an attempting opinion-changer can take: that there are approaches that basically "here are my views, let me show you them, and why my views are good and your views are bad and wrong" which often feel really good and righteous to DO, and do genuinely serve a purpose, that the attempting opinion-changer expresses something and gets it out there. And then there are approaches that actually *work* at changing opinions and more importantly changing *behaviour*, which don't always feel good or righteous, and often involve levels of humility and holding back and actually listening to and engaging with people who one cannot stand (and who do genuinely hate you / some of your friends / other groups of people). And these approaches do not overlap as often as one would like, especially on emotive topics.

And I often wonder, in these conversations - "what are you trying to *do* here?" is an incredibly important question for us to be asking ourselves. And sometimes the answer is, genuinely, I need to blow off steam, and that's fine if you're honest that is what you are doing. But also, try to understand, that if you do actually want to change someone's mind / opinions / behaviour, that a different tack is neccessary.

I am going to have massive second thoughts about this post the minute that I post it, but I'm not going to put it on the "second thoughts" thread, because it seems that thread is no longer for second thoughts, but purely for meta and I don't want this to degenerate into meta. Maybe I should start a different thread...

I think that's all true. Tbh in general it feels presumptuous to me to want to change somebody's beliefs - part of why I hate all forms of sales pitch. And I see ilx more as a venting/commiserating space. Of course getting angry with people you like almost always feels counterproductive, but then trying to express anger in ways that aren't long term harmful is a good maybe necessary exercise in itself

And maybe sometimes everybody needs to hear legitimate anger, even if it alienates them, because I think a lot of horrible opinions fester in a space where people allow themselves to believe that opinions and beliefs are only abstract language games

I do agree that people do *need* a place to express legitimate anger. And I also agree that sometimes people do *need* to hear legitimate anger, for the reasons that you say.

But I'm also painfully aware of all sorts of power dynamics which shape and warp whose anger is seen as "legitimate" and whose anger is dismissed and deligitimised.

This needs a different thread.

(And in fact, not just whose anger is delegitimised, but for whom, anger - legitimate or otherwise - is seen as inherently delegitimising *them*)

Yeah, that web of dynamics is spread thru everything

And sometimes - I put my hand up - is used as an excuse for bad behaviour, something I think we all fall into sometimes

I made a new thread:

Times where someone / something genuinely changed your mind about a Political / Ethical / Social Issue

This is why the "debate me" tactic that so many of these lunatics love is so annoying. No one is actually going to be convinced either way. It's all about scoring points and boosting your own views and not engaging with the other side. I'd rather just keep the brain worms far away from my personal bubble because as soon as you engage you've already lost.

Hell yeah, you have to ask yourself why you're arguing and how it's making you feel

My mom sent me some right-wing meme that actually contained the word ‘retarded’. I delete all of them on sight but shit mom, we don’t use that word in this century.

xp Hard not to feel kind of nihilist/hopeless with that attitude, though (which I generally have regarding "debating the other side")

There are reachable people out there, but the ones who are most eager to have a debate so that they can show off their Prager U talking points are probably a waste of time.

Hell yeah, you have to ask yourself why you're arguing and how it's making you feel

I'd gone a few rounds of 'just when I thought I was out...' incidents on FB with a cousin who's just asking the questions the questions the lamestream media won't go near then finally realised I was stressing myself for absolutely no reason or benefit to anyone.
The guy's lost a pile of work through lockdown and is looking through a different lens and I'll never fix that.
It was just raising my blood pressure so I told him to believe whatever the fuck he liked and bowed out.

I can't really blame anyone who is doing badly because of lockdowns for thinking eh idk something doesn't sit right here.

Lots of things don't sit right but he was pulling out conspiracy nonsense like it's no worse than a flu and no extra deaths have occurred and the Irish govt have adjusted their covid death figures down to zero and the cdc says masks don't work and you're breathing in your own carbon dioxide and it's all a big control experiment.

I couldn't quite get to the bottom of why such diverse leaders as Angela Merkel, Donald Trump and Nicola Sturgeon would want to work together to prevent him from DJing because he's actually quite good at it.

Lol it always seems to be DJs

xp

And I often wonder, in these conversations - "what are you trying to *do* here?" is an incredibly important question for us to be asking ourselves. And sometimes the answer is, genuinely, I need to blow off steam, and that's fine if you're honest that is what you are doing. But also, try to understand, that if you do actually want to change someone's mind / opinions / behaviour, that a different tack is neccessary.

I guess that might be the motivation for some people but probably more often the answer is "I want to stick to my principles and not compromise or say something I wouldn't endorse"

But you don't have to compromise or say something you wouldn't endorse in order to end the conversation - you can just say something like "you're wrong and I'm not gonna argue with you over it".

Scientists are at the point Economists were at 5 years ago when they got Brexit wrong. They have no one else to blame though, and now they are shutting down dissent as scientists who argue against prevailing wisdom are being ostracized and facing censure.

'They're deliberately adding false positives to the tally!
They're suppressing the whistleblowers' videos!
Those who died were going to die anyway!
Those who died deserved to die because they're not fighting fit like me! I don't need to see a doctor, I will bury you all!
You're too young to understand the implications of a curfew!
This is a dictatorship and you fucking like it, sheeple!'

...and the worst is still on the horizon now that the Loose Change of covid is out in France. 2 hours and 45 minutes of JuSt AsKiNg QuEsTiOnS and arguing that the International Elites no longer need approx. 3 million proles and have therefore decided it is time to cull them via a mass 5g (the g stands for B. Gates) vaccine that will be delivered to your doorstep by Amazon drones.

vaccine that will be delivered to your doorstep by Amazon drones.

I expect early access as a Prime member

on a "it always seems to be DJs" note i had to unfollow Hannah Wants today :(

Doorstep, hell, the drone is gonna fly around directly injecting everyone it sees wearing a mask, the mark of the cullable sheep

NV if it makes you feel any better she’d already been called out for plagiarising Joy O tracks

Drone vaccine predicted by Star Wars in '77

The long march of the institutions is now wreaking havoc in the corporate world as socialism has taken root in the private sector. Its unclear how they've been able to do it when they are so few in number, but its very clever

I mean, just look around you – they’re everywhere. Don’t you see?!?

Its a strange scenario alright. It turns out that we actually already have socialism, even though we never voted for it.

What it does make clear is that in such conversations we make a lot of assumptions about words. Not just with brain-wormed people either, but in other conversations. How often do we even mean the same things when using the same words, and what is to be gained by arguing over the meaning of a word?

What is to be gained by arguing, and work from there

Why would you spend 5 minutes speaking politics to a person who thinks "we already have socialism"? These are people/conversations for whom weather/sports were created.

speaking = discussing

(talk about brain worms)

What is to be gained by arguing, and work from there

Nothing is to gained by arguing as you must presumably be certain of?

Why would you spend 5 minutes speaking politics to a person who thinks "we already have socialism"?

Familial bond. Curiosity.

what is to be gained by arguing over the meaning of a word?

― anvil, Saturday, 2 January 2021 12:13 (fifty-eight minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I didnt start my question from zero position

A friend, not a close one, more an old colleague, well someone I once had to fire, but she took it well, has been silent on Facebook for most of the last year and has come back with these long blog posts about how she has gone from being a left wing activist to a right-wing anti-mask anti-lockdown person. I don't want to link to her blog directly but if you go to rae lle ka ia (dot) medium (dot) com (hope that's google-proof) then I think it's a very interesting study for the ILX brainworms research group.

Has her activism either way been anything more than posting things on various online platforms, out of interest

Her therapist stopped seeing her just because of what she shared in that first post? Is that credible? I'm not really siding with the therapist here if so

Has her activism either way been anything more than posting things on various online platforms, out of interest

― spruce springclean (darraghmac), Saturday, January 2, 2021 1:29 PM (three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I saw she had been to a few protests over the previous few years, and was always posting Bernie Sanders stuff, tbh I don't know her that well.

 I had thought being on the Left was all about freedom, dignity, liberty, equality, and democracy. 

I would contend that this person hadn't thought really hard about what it means to be on the left.

i would contend that whatever you think you used to be if you've gone full rona conspiracist then you're a moron

Strikes a lush G chord

Morona

Moronnnnnaaaaaa

etc

‘QAnon Anonymous’:

a support group for people addicted to insane conspiracy theories, including... wait for it... pic.twitter.com/ocIb8HaePQ

— Rex Chapman🏇🏼 (@RexChapman) December 21, 2020

I think it's a very interesting study for the ILX brainworms research group.

I only read her first post on Medium, not the second much longer one but I didn't really see any brainworms there. Maybe thats more apparent in in the longer post but this just seems like someone feeling discombobulated and anxious by how things currently are, which isn't exactly surprising right now

Yeah, it's the longer one I was talking about, and absolutely lockdown / isolation has done this. But also she is now well on her way to full-on right-wing.