"Drawn Into the Flight Path of the Sounds": Xenakis Listening Thread

Re: that photo, I found the source. He's chatting with Roger Reynolds.

http://www.rogerreynolds.com/gallery/gallery_reynolds_xenakis.html

Ah ha

…who is 86 now! The JACK Quartet just released an album featuring two of his recent works, incidentally. I haven't heard them yet, but I certainly will very soon.

This week's selections:
Achorripsis, 21 insts, 1956–7
Duel, 2 small orchs, 1959
Syrmos, 12 vn, 3 vc, 3 db, 1959
Herma, pf, 1960–61
Orient-Occident, 2-track, 1960

Achorripsis: I like this one a lot. Comparatively sparse and a bit reminiscent to me of Webern in its pointillistic texture but with the man's signature shifts of statistical density (calculated with matrices of probabilities from what I gather, with instruments grouped based on timbre), allowing for a very clear linear form, which I always appreciate with him. As noted here, "transparent textures, string glissandi and pizzicati, dabs of colours that might have dazzled the serialists of the time if they'd been less dogmatic": https://www.iannis-xenakis.org/fxe/catalog/oeuvre_12.html

Syrmos: listening to the Ensemble Resonanz recording on Spotify and holy shit. The sounds he gets from these 18 strings are huge. Sweeping glissandi, pizzicati, and col legno sounds. So, reading a bit, I gather that he did make graphic scores for pieces before notating them conventionally? The excerpt of the (traditionally notated) score here is v cool and actually v precise in terms of the tuplet durations between stopped pitches that slide into each other: http://iannis-xenakis.org/fxe/catalog/oeuvre_16.html

Reviews from the 60s, in English and French: http://www.centre-iannis-xenakis.org/files/original/683f89c597901f78fc57014c95ad1fdc.pdf

Woah, missed this! Bookmarked!

Re novelty vs satisfactoryness of Metastaseis vs Pithoprakta: it may be relevant that the former kinda documents Xenakis's disillusionment with integral serialism; the work was made the same year that he wrote the article "La crise de musique sérielle", and the middle bit is, if I remember correctly, serially based. To make the story tidier than it probably is, you can almost hear the switch over into his own idiom, while in Pithoprakta, it's probably all him, so to speak.

The serial crisis in his view, again surely oversimplified and according to my memory (corrections etc very welcome!), was that the efforts to introduce as much variation and as little repetition as possible had had the paradoxical effect of making everything sound the same, a grey mass, to our perception. His solution then was to manipulate parameters directly at a macro level, ie the things that we do perceive differences between, and rather let those decisions percolate down to the detailed notes.

The premiere of Metastaseis in Germany was apparently a bit of a scandal, and it took some time before the local avant-garde came around to him. I can't find any references to this on the internet, but I seem to remember reading an old review where words like "Katzenmusik" and "Totenmusik" were used.

Duel: When I was looking for Xenakis recordings a few years back, this one and Stratégie were pretty much the only two mature works I couldn't find at all. (It seems there is a Stratégie on YouTube.) Of course, these are probably the two works of his that will sound most different from performance to performance: the mathematical basis is game theory, and the works are themselves games. Two conductors continuously signal to their separate orchestras which parts of the score should be played in which manner, and amass points based on a two-dimensional table of the respective options.

Given their modest length, I've always thought it would be fun to have a CD dedicated to each work, with (say) four conductors facing off in two semifinals, followed by a third-place match and a final, so that we could hear a number of realizations of each piece. :)

Does that mean you've actually done this whole trip before?? You could be our guide! Didn't know that there are serial elements in the middle of Metastaseis! I'll look into that.

Orient-Occident: this is actually the only one of this week's pieces I've heard before. It's pleasant, in the best sense of the term - I find the timbres and rhythmic passages quite pleasurable to listen to. I somehow didn't quite clock until now that it was originally made to accompany a film that was supposed to portray various cultures from prehistory to the time of Alexander the Great. Xenakis seems to have taken a rather abstract approach to this, without any obvious cliché allusions that I can recognize, so much that I couldn't tell you by listening what any of the referenced cultures are supposed to be, but it makes for a nice sense of panoramic variety.

Interesting about Duel and Stratégie btw. Didn't know he wrote anything that aleatoric.

Does that mean you've actually done this whole trip before??

Started, not completed. Important difference. :) (I think things fizzled out a bit around Persephassa, for no specific reason.)

Re serialism in Metastaseis: looking at Wikipedia, I may have misunderstood; according to that page, the serial techniques were used in the middle part of Anastenaria, the three-part work of which Metastaseis was originally the third and final (and nonserial)part. On the other hand, this abstract fits with how I understood it.

Herma is great. Maybe I'm just partial to Takahashi for her Feldman playing, but this piece manages to convey emotions without anything you could point out and hum the following day.

Also, how about an ILX fan cover of Duel? Does anyone have access to the score? We could be the defining recording of the piece.

Oh! I just noticed something in the score to Achorripsis: Every tenth measure is numbered, as is not uncommon at all, except that the number comes after the requisite number of measures have been finished, not before the numbered measure! That is, contrary to what I think is common practice, the number 10 in a square is placed on the boundary between measure 10 and 11, not between measure 9 and 10. I find this far more logical, it has always annoyed me that the first number usually turns up after nine measures, and the remaining ones every tenth measure thereafter.

Unless, of course, this is also a common alternative convention that I've never noticed.

However, he uses another illogical convention: Notes sounding an octave higher/lower than written are marked by the number 8, fine, but then notes two octaves higher/lower should logically be marked 15, not 16 as here. I mean, I get why 16 is used, but there is no sensible way of counting 16 up from the written note and end up on the sounded note.

All of these things (as well as two fifths not adding up to a tenth but a ninth, etc) I guess stem from the number zero not being an immediate concept to humans, and/or the tendency to think in numbers of objects rather than the space between them. It's not so long ago that it was customary to e.g. consider a Wednesday to come three days after Monday, which seems a convention as useful as any other until you try to add or subtract.

Um, that was a digression.

(So an octave ought really to be called a septave, the unison should be a zeroson, the two fourths C-G and G-D would add up to the eighth C-D, and all would work out. I'm not holding my breath.)

I was thinking of stuff like Varèse's Poème électronique, Stockhausen's Studie II, Boulez's Etudes I & II, Barraqué's Etude (I see a pattern here!), etc. Luc Ferrari, Pierre Schaeffer, Pierre Henry, Bernard Parmegiani and other noted musique concrète practitioners from that era are in a different category as far as I'm concerned because they devoted the quasi entirety of their efforts to the genre.

Diamorphoses is 1958, Stockhausen had moved on to Gesang der Junglinge by then, so Studie II is not a great comparison. Things were moving fast in those days!

Fair point.

Btw if someone wants to do a series of musique concrète polls at some point, I'd be on board.

All of these things (as well as two fifths not adding up to a tenth but a ninth, etc) I guess stem from the number zero not being an immediate concept to humans, and/or the tendency to think in numbers of objects rather than the space between them. It's not so long ago that it was customary to e.g. consider a Wednesday to come three days after Monday, which seems a convention as useful as any other until you try to add or subtract.
(So an octave ought really to be called a septave, the unison should be a zeroson, the two fourths C-G and G-D would add up to the eighth C-D, and all would work out. I'm not holding my breath.)

Disagree that this would be more logical. I've never heard of that in terms of counting days of the week but I don't think this is the same - ordinal numbers are not the same as cardinal numbers. Interval size isn't labelled based on counting equally sized units (unless you're doing it in terms of tones or semitones). A cello playing C + a violin playing C doesn't add up to zero - it adds up to harmonic unity. A major third is the distance from the first note to the third note of the major scale, not a total of three units of something; the distance between a major third and a perfect fourth is less than the distance between a major second and a major third. Labelling measure numbers after the bar instead of before is unconventional (at least today) but isn't necessarily illogical. Labelling two octaves as a 16th is just madness.

I mean, if we want to actually measure intervals mathematically, we just say that an octave is 12 semitones, which is far more precise than calling it a septave or something.

I've listened to Takahashi's recording of Herma a few times now and have to admit I haven't found a way in yet. Maybe I should read more about it?

I hadn't read anything about it before listening, but maybe I just have lower standards for 20th century solo piano music? Or I was in a particularly receptive mood. Her recordings of Feldman were my only point of reference, for her playing I mean-- obviously the composers are not much alike.

No, I don't think it means you have low standards! It's a well-respected piece, I gather. I just didn't really feel like I understood it yet.

xps

Fair points, Sund4r. I concede that the current terminology works without particular problems in practice, but I cannot help finding it somewhat suboptimal. A minor point: I think how intervals measure in semitones is a red herring, or a separate matter; for tonal music at least, it seems to me that diatonic distance does make sense as a measure in itself, regardless of semitone buildup. In a major-scale metric, for instance, it makes sense in some contexts to say that the distance between a major third and a perfect fourth is the same as between a major second and a major third, even if it is only half the distance in a chromatic or log-frequency metric.

(Btw, the thing with measure numbers was that I found it more logical to label it after the bar.)

I guess the thing with a term like "(perfect) fifth" is that in actual use, it is just a convenient label for a certain relationship, without particular regard to the numeric content of the term. I mean, I would be much more likely to call a C-G interval in a Xenakis piece a "fifth" rather than a "seven-semitone interval", even if the number five has no relevance whatsoever there (as opposed to in a Beethoven sonata).

Fwiw, pcset theory, commonly used for analysing and sometimes writing post-tonal music, IS based on regarding C-G as a distance of seven semitones rather than a tonal relationship of a P5.

("Steps" - distinct from "whole steps/half steps" - are the units that are consistent between tonal intervals. I don't really see a logical inconsistency with saying that a third involves a distance of two steps.)

I listened to Marc Ponthus's recording of Herma this morning and it clicked right away. Maybe Takahashi softened me up.

Anyway, back to the works. There is quite the difference in tempo in the two recordings of Achorripsis on Spotify – the Luxembourg/Tamayo takes it at the pace specified in the score (approx 7 minutes), but the EIMC Paris/Simonovitch is almost 25% faster, at 5:19!

I don't have anything intelligent to add, but Achorripsis is a favourite of mine – I love how it mimics serialism without resorting to its strictures. Syrmos sounds more typically Xenakis-esque to my ears, and while I like his way with string instruments in general, it doesn't strike me as the most memorable of his compositions. Herma remains a mystery to me – I am much more partial to his later pieces for solo piano. Lastly, Orient-Occident, which I had never heard before, is absolutely incredible: evocative and abstract in equal measure, a kind of precursor to kosmische Musik.

Special shout-out to YouTube user 'do you have a a eggs for me', who posted the following comment 8 years ago, in response to Orient-Occident:

I just don't understand

Agree with Sund4r that the Ensemble Resonanz recording of Syrmos sounds massive! The score says that each voice may be doubled, maybe that option has been taken here? Re tuplets: I noticed that both this one and Achorripsis are chock full of 5-to-4-to-3 juxtapositions; I haven't noticed any higher tuplets.

Another random thought after a few works so far: One thing that pretty much doesn't happen within a piece, is change in tempo. Of course a corresponding-ish effect can be written out in changing note values instead, but it does seem to me that while the detailed action may ebb and flow, it feels like this happens against a ground that gives an impression of a measured, but relentless procession.

"Orient-Occident" is very good, but I don't think it or "Diamorphoses" are that different from what else was being produced in various studios in Paris in the late 50s/ early 60s. "Concret PH" was more original and then he really heads for pastures new with "Bohor".

what else was being produced in various studios in Paris in the late 50s/ early 60s

Any similar-sounding pieces you'd recommend in particular?

Oh, I'd have to think about that!

Actually, I've just listened to it and it's a lot clangier and screechier than I remembered! I can definitely hear Schaeffer in there though.

Made for a documentary film and commissioned by UNESCO, it seems.

Week 3:
ST/48, 48 insts, 1959–62
ST/4, str qt, 1956–62
ST/10, cl, b cl, 2 hn, hp, perc, str qt, 1956–62
Bohor, 4-track, 1962

I couldn't find any available recordings of the score for Thessaloniki World Fair.

*film score

James Harley (U of Guelph composer) on the ST series and ST/48 in particular at AMG:

In the period leading up to 1962, Iannis Xenakis was preoccupied with developing a compositional system that would be completely automated. His application of mathematical techniques adapted from probability theory in earlier pieces such as Pithoprakta and Acchorpsis lead to what he termed "stochastic" music. In this approach, as many compositional decisions as possible are made through the application of some probability function, often interlocked to create Markov chains, enabling one event to influence the next in some fashion. By 1962, Xenakis had managed to create a computer program to test his composition algorithm, and on that basis he produced a family of works.

The orchestral ST/48 is the piece of this set that is for the largest forces, but is probably the least known. It was not performed until 1968 and has been little performed since. The algorithm produces music on the basis of pre-defined sections, the durations to be determined by some function. ST/48, which lasts ten minutes, has seven sections, each lasting anywhere from twelve seconds (IV) to well over two minutes (V, VI). Xenakis' trademark glissandi are heard, but the strings are treated somewhat less intricately than in such piecvs as Pithoprakta. Instruments tend to play one note (or glissando) then drop out, creating a statistical, kaleidoscopic texture. The primary distinction between the seven sections is the noticeable shift in overall density. The highest degree of activity is found in sections I, V, and VII. The final one is quite brief and markedly denser than any of the others.

Bohor was side 1 of the LP I mentioned above. Apparently, the North American pressing of the LP was specifically mastered by Xenakis and Bob Ludwig to increase in volume at the climax? I haven't heard any versions on CD to compare. Three years later, Ludwig was mastering Metal Machine Music.

The liner notes to the LP are correct: "the piece demands total surrender". 20 minutes is about the right length for this kind of experience.

Although algorithmic/generative music is not overall my jam most of the time, ST/48 was actually pretty pleasant and unexpectedly placid-feeling on first listen.

Listening to JACK Quartet's recording of ST/4 on Naxos for the second time and not totally sure what to make of it. I don't really get the sense of form, narrative, and drama that I get from the Xenakis pieces I like most but the sounds are interesting and engaging in an ambient sort of way.

ST/10 isn't on Spotify, anyone have a YouTube link?

Bohor: I'm not sure if I've listened to this since I was an undergraduate - listening now, it seems like something that should have been way up my alley then. Maybe it was? The notes to the Electronic Music question whether we will ever know anything about how the piece was composed but this is actually quite detailed and informative: http://sites.music.columbia.edu/masterpieces/notes/xenakis/notes.html . I knew none of this!

I'm finding it a little harsh at times but it's also kind of an awesome (in the old meaning of the term) sound. Succeeds at evoking the intended feeling of "being inside a bell". The noise in the last three minutes is fantastic. I feel like the common thread between the pieces in the period we're exploring this week is a move away from dramatic linear sectional forms and more of a 'music as environment' aesthetic?

It just ended - feels like a shock to no longer be in the bell, and feel a little deafened.

ST/10 isn't on Spotify, anyone have a YouTube link?

I can find it on Spotify in Norway; might just be hard to search for by title, or licencing may differ between countries. It is on the album "Iannis Xenakis: Atrées, Morsima-Amorsima, Nomos Alpha, ST 4, Achorripsis", disc 2 track 3:

Album: https://open.spotify.com/album/43H1Wm5cYm7TEuMKrAvxEQ?si=jrIIHXJXRqSfBI2B1jaJEA
Track: https://open.spotify.com/track/7yp5MsjkDvvlYsTP9IhaqA?si=K9xb_3N8QImrHPxyztTqRQ

ST/4 is an adaption of ST/10, by the way (in case it wasn't obvious, the number indicates the number of players):

"The quartet is in essence a transcription of the score for the larger ensemble. ST/10 includes a string quartet as part of its ensemble, so those parts were lifted directly. The next step of the transcription, though, was to add in anything else from the other parts of ST/10 that would be possible for the quartet to play. This includes percussion, where a drum roll would be transcribed as tapping fingers on the body of the string instrument, and harp, where the extended lower range could be played by the cello with judicious adjustment of the tuning peg of the lowest string."

(From https://www.fields.utoronto.ca/programs/scientific/12-13/xenakis/xenakis.html)

IIRC, the tuning-down-the-cello-while-pizzicatoing-trick is also used in the Nomos Alpha solo piece? We'll see when we get there soon enough.

I am falling behind already, fuck.