Carrasco lol.
― Matt DC, Sunday, 11 October 2020 16:43 (three years ago) link
Coady and Mings at CB could do no worse than this bunch of clowns imo. You'd hope that Stones is done at this level for the time being (don't count on it), Gomez was so severely awful against the Villa the other day, he could probably do with some time out of the spotlight. Tarkowski only just coming back from injury, I think?
There are no issues here though, it's 1-1 going into halftme, obviously two evenly matched teams out there. England would obviously be running away with it if only Kane and Sterling were out there
― Windsor Davies, Sunday, 11 October 2020 16:44 (three years ago) link
well the main ish is that for all Southgate's new broom new approach he's still a sucker for the "the best players are all at the big clubs with the biggest media narrative" Roy of the Rovers bullshit
― 1000 Scampo DJs (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 11 October 2020 16:50 (three years ago) link
ofc, tha'ts a given. incredibly frustrating to watch, even with the personnel limitations of this squad you can imagine a back four and a Henderson-Phillips/Rice-Grealish midfield trio and Sancho wide on the right offering so much more on the ball. can only imagine the pressure continuing to build the longer Southgate persists with playing 5 at the back and a pair of cloggers in the centre while there's all this talent performing on the weekly at club level
― Windsor Davies, Sunday, 11 October 2020 16:57 (three years ago) link
although i suppose being shit but getting goals from set pieces and penalties got us to a WC semi-final so tonight's performance has been about par for his undeniably successful tenure as national team boss
― Windsor Davies, Sunday, 11 October 2020 16:58 (three years ago) link
i just feel like a neutral observer with England and it's largely for those reasons
― 1000 Scampo DJs (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 11 October 2020 16:59 (three years ago) link
well that and obv i support Portugal now :D
Stunning from Mount. Jack Grealish could never
― hiroyoshi tins in (Sgt. Biscuits), Sunday, 11 October 2020 17:24 (three years ago) link
might need to turn 5 Live off shortly now England are the best team in the world again
― 1000 Scampo DJs (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 11 October 2020 18:01 (three years ago) link
Coady and Mings at CB could do no worse than this bunch of clowns imo
Gold and Black specs aside i don't think this is *wrong*
― 1000 Scampo DJs (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 11 October 2020 18:14 (three years ago) link
also Southgate is pretty fucking clueless as a tactician i think
― 1000 Scampo DJs (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 11 October 2020 18:26 (three years ago) link
Southgate is pretty good when it comes to working with the limitations of a squad but it's the refusal to use a number 10 when Grealish, Maddison and probably Foden are all performing for their clubs that's galling.
― Matt DC, Sunday, 11 October 2020 21:22 (three years ago) link
i don't even know where he's got the double defensive mid obsession from, obvious answer might be Middlesbrough but it's genuinely weird, he seems smarter than that, i do think it's mostly a commitment to the Usual Suspects
― 1000 Scampo DJs (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 11 October 2020 21:27 (three years ago) link
Playing two holding midfielders together was very fashionable a decade or so ago. Holland nearly kicked their way to a World Cup with De Jong and Van Bommel sitting in front of the back four, Spain had Xabi Alonso sitting next to Busquets at the base of midfield, Germany had Khedira and Schweinsteiger both playing in deep defensive roles, all at a time when England were still trying to play Gerrard and Lampard together. There's nothing wrong with two holding midfielders as a tactical approach.
The difference is that these were all elite midfielders - not Jordan Henderson and Declan Rice. Henderson is an excellent team player, generally his boundless reserves of energy and discipline and willingness to play exactly the role that's asked for him, and he has plenty of big game experience at the highest level (and this does matter, whatever anyone says), but he is not at the same level as any of the above. Never been convinced by Rice.
I don't think I can remember seeing two holding midfielders played with a back five though, which suggests that Southgate has no real confidence in his CBs (and why shouldn't he? He's right not to). But most importantly all those 2010 teams had a double holding midfield to allow more to happen further forward. Spain had the small matter of Xavi and Iniesta, and those four in midfield could circulate possession endlessly as a defensive and attacking strategy, the best midfield there has ever been at doing so - while this is probably the worst England midfield I can remember.
The other teams had two holding midfielders providing the solidity that enabled hugely talented but flaky creative players to really do their thing unencumbered in front of them - Germany had Mezut Ozil, Holland had Wesley Schneider. That's the player Southgate's England don't have (they don't have a decent box-to-box runner either but that's a different issue). That's the gap waiting to be filled by a Grealish or a Maddison I reckon, or even a Foden or at least theoretically Dele. Grealish has only really played at EPL and Championship level but he's also just managed to make himself look like Maradona up against a Premier League and Champions League-winning defence, and he's never going to displace Sterling, Rashford or Sancho in wide areas.
― Matt DC, Monday, 12 October 2020 07:55 (three years ago) link
love the original copy pasted points in this thread. esp the darragh 6 - wilshere,walcott,young etc none of whom turned out to be anywhere near as good as gerrard, lampard, or even barry.
― oscar bravo, Monday, 12 October 2020 11:54 (three years ago) link
they never let thudd run the midfield
― Chip-vill-A (imago), Monday, 12 October 2020 12:21 (three years ago) link
The idea of Huddlestone trying to operate in England's midfield in the high pressing era is hilarious.
― Matt DC, Monday, 12 October 2020 13:53 (three years ago) link
13-goal Agbonlahor was certainly a suggestion
― Number None, Monday, 12 October 2020 14:11 (three years ago) link
The first four years or so of this decade were probably the worst crop of English players there's been, regardless of how unbalanced the current squad is, surely everyone has to agree that as an attacking force it's immeasurably better that when pretty much everything was dependent on whether or not Rooney could be arsed to turn up.
― Matt DC, Monday, 12 October 2020 14:15 (three years ago) link
may just be a generational fluke but english academies have been producing decent numbers of potentially excellent attacking players + full backs but I haven't seen corresponding depth in CBs or DMs. It could be that clubs are more likely to take chances on inexperienced forwards rather than defenders but i dunno.
― oscar bravo, Monday, 12 October 2020 14:50 (three years ago) link
lol could have copy pasted myself from 6 years ago
Still think Eng have v good talent in the front end of the pitch. They have no elite defenders and not much coming down the pipeline, but you could maybe patch together a borderline competent defence if they had some protection in front of them. They have zero even anywhere near elite central midfielders. NONE. And none of the young tyros coming through play there. The best might be Ox-Chamb. and I'm not sure he's ever going to play central and if he does it will be as frwd CM not deep lying.
― pandemic, Friday, June 20, 2014 9:13 AM (six years ago) bookmarkflaglink
― oscar bravo, Monday, 12 October 2020 15:07 (three years ago) link
except not sure any midfield could mitigate england's defence now.
― oscar bravo, Monday, 12 October 2020 15:08 (three years ago) link
he robbed Shilton of god knows how many caps but still a trooper, RIP Ray Clemence
― big man on scampus (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 15 November 2020 17:30 (three years ago) link
good news everybody
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/aug/01/time-to-retire-three-lions-anthem-after-euro-2022-win-says-david-baddiel
― seo layer (Noodle Vague), Monday, 1 August 2022 16:09 (one year ago) link
“I’m very happy to think the song would, in a way, be put to bed.” Fans, however, may feel differently the next time England loses, he saidhad to spoil it, didn't he?
― link.exposing.politically (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Monday, 1 August 2022 16:38 (one year ago) link
wish somebody loved me as unconditionally as Southgate loves Maguire
― feudal vague (Noodle Vague), Friday, 23 September 2022 18:48 (one year ago) link
looking fwd to Maguire starting in the world cup on the back of a couple of league cup appearances for utd between now and then
― oscar bravo, Friday, 23 September 2022 20:02 (one year ago) link
Wow they actually showed that lad running on the pitch, lovely bit of nostalgia
― feudal vague (Noodle Vague), Friday, 23 September 2022 20:35 (one year ago) link
harry maguire doing harry maguire things
― oscar bravo, Monday, 26 September 2022 20:04 (one year ago) link
... followed by Nick Pope doing Nick Pope things.
― Narada Michael Fagan (Tom D.), Monday, 26 September 2022 21:59 (one year ago) link
sancho, whats happened there
― close encounters of the third knid (darraghmac), Monday, 4 September 2023 20:49 (eight months ago) link
yeah at Dortmund I wouldn't have hesitated to day he was like only a fraction less impressive than bellingham. and yet he's been nothing at utd and bellingham is basically running madrid. then again I thought havertz was p special in bundesliga and he's p meh now. next player I'll probably end up wrong about if he comes to england - florian wirtz at leverkusen.
― oscar bravo, Monday, 4 September 2023 21:25 (eight months ago) link
I don't watch enough (i.e. basically any) German football to evaluate the difference between the Dortmund Sancho and the current version but it does seem like the signs were always there to an extent. Seems to have had attitude/application problems at every club he's been at, stories about being late for training, turning up unfit to pre-season, etc. There have been some whispers of personal issues but can't shed much light on that either.
based solely on his time at Utd, he looks like a technically accomplished player who's physically incapable of coping with the pace and power of the league. Classy on the ball in a vague sort of way but doesn't have the acceleration to go past players, totally unable to hold the ball under pressure, and shit-scared of any kind of challenge.
There have been worse players for Utd (been a lot of them in the last few years strangely enough) but I honestly don't think there have been any as...pointless as him. Cannot think of single match over the past two seasons where he's looked good from start to finish. Can barely think of a 10-minute period in a match to be honest.
Best for him and the club that he's moved on as quickly as possible now
― Number None, Monday, 4 September 2023 21:25 (eight months ago) link
oh and back to england , how kalvin philips makes squad after squad is beyond me.
― oscar bravo, Monday, 4 September 2023 21:27 (eight months ago) link
xp he definitely had the acceleration in bundesliga and the power. he was frightening.
― oscar bravo, Monday, 4 September 2023 21:28 (eight months ago) link
I will have to bow to your knowledge on that
there's definitely something amiss with him anyway. The whole thing with him being sent to train in the Netherlands for three months on his own in the middle of last season was very weird
― Number None, Monday, 4 September 2023 21:44 (eight months ago) link
the pace/strength required to beat epl players 1v1 does- disappointingly- seem to be a thing and sancho is maybe a high profile victim of it
are there m/any successful 'dribblers' of note left in the league with ASM gone?
sterling shifts it ninety degrees quickly with the outstep, as does kulusevski, for instance, and (for want of a better example) antonio controls the ball adequately while lifting centre halves like sinks ahead of him. bernardo silva drily touches the ball just to where you dont get it, again and again.
foden? does foden dribble?
whither steve guppy lads, essentially
― close encounters of the third knid (darraghmac), Monday, 4 September 2023 22:44 (eight months ago) link
Tbh my knowledge aint worth much. Full disclosure the 3 players I've never been more sure about being absolute world beaters coming from the Bundesliga in recent years are haaland ( everyone knew before he even got to Germany so he doesn't really count) Bellingham ( everyone knew post world cup so probably doesn't count) and ...........naby keita!! never have I been more sure about a player ,based on his first season at Leipzig where he was basically Bellingham++. How wrong I was.
― oscar bravo, Monday, 4 September 2023 22:47 (eight months ago) link
Salah can dribble. I mean he's no Ben arfa mind.
― oscar bravo, Monday, 4 September 2023 22:48 (eight months ago) link
you could have told me havertz wouldnt have been a atar in any top ten epl team and id have called you a nonce and a liar and i might even have claimed u dint kno ball if i were having a very bad day
but then maybe berbatov himself wouldnt stand out in 2023 premier league?
it all started with malouda imo
― close encounters of the third knid (darraghmac), Monday, 4 September 2023 22:49 (eight months ago) link
salah yes ofc
no steve guppy all the same
G Nev was talking player comparisons the other week wrt declan rice. He mentioned michael essien who I hadn't thought about in years but my god what a player to have in your midfield.
― oscar bravo, Monday, 4 September 2023 22:53 (eight months ago) link
speaking of, sandro retired at 34 today
shone brightly but not too long but he was transformative for us when a screening muncher was a real novelty for us
― close encounters of the third knid (darraghmac), Monday, 4 September 2023 22:57 (eight months ago) link
Mitoma and Martinelli to be added to Salah on that list. Arguably Son at Spurs too.
Berba would be a star at any time. His technique would still be better than 90% of the league.
― sell cigs to kids (a hoy hoy), Monday, 4 September 2023 22:57 (eight months ago) link
i thought son would be offered but- possibly like mitoma, of whom ive not seen enough tbh- his control of the ball isnt actually very good unless its in the very specific subcategory of dribbling that bisects defensive positions at pace
and if i have to tap the capote/ben arfa sign i will
― close encounters of the third knid (darraghmac), Monday, 4 September 2023 23:00 (eight months ago) link
martinelli beats a man and i like him but idk have i seen him dribble beyond fellas more than ive seen him wait out their tackle/move and beat them with reaction
i have, it will be noted, a rather specific criteria i use personally for what counts as "dribbling"
― close encounters of the third knid (darraghmac), Monday, 4 September 2023 23:03 (eight months ago) link
All decent points but you said “successful” dribblers and all are “successful” at beating defenders through dribbling and will do so in every game. I don’t think there is any great aesthete
― sell cigs to kids (a hoy hoy), Monday, 4 September 2023 23:14 (eight months ago) link
I accidentally posted mid sentence. I don’t think there is any world class Garrinchas in the league at the moment, but quite a few are still very young (Marti/Saka are 21, Mudryk is 21, Mitoma is 26 but seems like he is just blooming, Antony is 23 and Garnacho is 19 etc) and as they grow, we could get out of this lull of dribbling expertise
― sell cigs to kids (a hoy hoy), Monday, 4 September 2023 23:19 (eight months ago) link
pls god
― close encounters of the third knid (darraghmac), Tuesday, 5 September 2023 05:48 (eight months ago) link