Free Speech and Creepy Liberalism

I get that the left has a (much-discussed) concern w the ways "identity politics" are used to smuggle in neolib ideologies and no one I know denies that happens but those same ppl on the left seem completely unwilling to accept the notion that it works the other way too: that class reductionism to varying degrees minimizes the concerns of people who aren't white. again, the sanders' campaign which sees an outer horizon for class change dismissing reparations as a pipe dream is the firmest articulation of this tendency on the left you could ask for

the sanders' campaign which sees an outer horizon for class change dismissing reparations as a pipe dream is the firmest articulation of this tendency on the left you could ask for

High level politicians (president, governors, congressional reps and senators) will approach the idea of reparations for slavery and Jim Crow in much the same way that such politicians approached the idea of gay marriage, gingerly and with extreme caution, far more likely to give private than public encouragement, until a movement for reparations can display enough public sympathy and political muscle to indemnify those politicians who come out publicly in favor of it.

That's how US politics work on the practical level. Show them some strength and they'll let you clear the path and follow along a few steps behind you.

why do you guys keep bringing up kamala and joe biden like this is an argument about them? no one here is trying to conflate "identity politics" (the conceptualization of which is more of a 'myth' than class reductionism to be real) with liberal politicians except the people trying to minimize the concerns of "identity politics" by conflating them with liberal politicians

― ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Monday, September 21, 2020 11:09 AM (thirty minutes ago)

otm.

and the "solidarity" imperative works both ways. Maybe this was just a fringe thing that I saw, but after the massive uprising after the Floyd shooting, there were a number of left dudes I'm friends with posting about how "BLM are corporate sell-outs" (like, hey, Maximum R&R for president). But none of these dudes were considering the option of "how about the left practice solidarity with a black-led coalition" ... not saying all white left dudes are/were of this opinion. Just that the people who were espousing this recalcitrance were white cis-dudes.

That might say more about the left dudes you’re friends with than “the left” or “left dudes”?

And, sorry if this is a tangent but, while not super immersed in activist groups, I am part of various groups for non-profit leaders and there is a lot of discussion and prominence being given to Equity and Inclusion, and centering marginalized voices, and putting those voices (and people) in positions of leadership. And that's mostly where I'm coming from with my criticism of "class-centered" activism and "class reductionism".

and i also realize that I live in one of the most leftist parts of the U.S. and there is definitely a bubble here that is often not reflective of the country as a whole, though, historically, we tend to be "ahead of the curve" lol

i wish those left-Twitter white cis-dudes would stop giving all us white cis-dudes a bad name.

i only see the ones on Facebook fwiw

(bows down. holds head in hands) worse, then. much worse.

Making sweeping judgements of a political spectrum based on your personal interactions with bloggers who live for the next Red Scare episode or crusty dudes with spiderweb tattoos who are still proud of booing Jawbreaker just seems incredibly misguided and pointless. The local DSA chapter was founded by a couple of 9/11 conspiracy theorists who had to be shunned and pushed out - at no point would it occur to anyone to suggest that Truthers are “pervasive” in the DSA or on the left, right?

It’s also what makes it seem like the not particularly good faith left punching that comes from liberals. Sanders didn’t back reparations - but the DSA does and it was an issue in terms of a Sanders endorsement. Which one represents “the left”? Do they offset?

crusty dudes with spiderweb tattoos who are still proud of booing Jawbreaker

how rude

crusty dudes with spiderweb tattoos who are still proud of booing Jawbreaker just seems incredibly misguided and pointless.

actually most of these dudes are into prog and analog synths and tube amps and have fairly decent hygiene but ... idk maybe we need to update the thread title to "Free Speech and Creepy Liberalism and Sweeping Judgments"

saying a particular ideological stance is pervasive within the left bloc of the country (millions of people) is not the same thing as making "sweeping judgements". I'd say its a substantial and tenacious stance for people (a minority? a majority? I couldn't say; but I would still say "substantial") i see discussing this stuff in many difft tiers: anecdotal, published in magazines, coming from (yes) more DIY trendy podcasts, on "the left"'s primary presidential candidate's platform, etc. I don't know how many more examples we need to give before you'll accept that "pervasive" is an appropriate word...but I think it is.

regardless of the degree to which it's infiltrated the left or is a misrepresentation of it or has always been there or whatever,

I find myself confronting situations where people suggest race and gender issues are overstated concerns on a pretty regular basis, even if they pay lip service to the idea that they are, of course, still relevant. now, if i was spending a lot of time around the liberal entrepreneurs who post weird graphs abt microaggressions on their IG stories all day as praxis, I might shift my argument. but im not, im spending it around a lot of people who i think are too willing to let concerns of social justice become an optics problem for their ongoing fantasy of convincing the white working class to vote D in more substantial numbers by pretending race no longer exists

If I can characterize the position further, it's not even that they're necessarily making a strategic argument abt winning elections; it's that theyre not even acknowledging or incorporating the above stated critique, even if to reject it, bc the convenient excuse of characterizing all efforts at orienting the conversation towards non-class related issues can be handwaved away as "liberal" identity politics and therefore an undermining conspiracy by neolibs

im spending it around a lot of people who i think are too willing to let concerns of social justice become an optics problem for their ongoing fantasy of convincing the white working class to vote D in more substantial numbers by pretending race no longer exists

exactly! glad it's not just me and my hypothetical crusty spiderweb tattooed friends

I also get the feeling that all the memes that are variants on "listen to black people!" are uh, partially referring to the pervasiveness of the handwaving

The most leftward people winning elections are women and POC, and the DSA is radically inclusive and Bernie's voting coalition wasn't very white in 2020 and his great strength was with Latinx voters and children of immigrants.

"They're only concerned with the white working class" was a cudgel used to beat the left (and Sanders) in 2016 and after the election - but that was very obviously not the case. You know who actually concern themselves primarily with the WWC? Moderate Democrats like Claire McCaskill.

Someone like Adolph Reed doesn't reject identity, they disagree with some about tactics in furthering a socialist agenda. That's why, as he says, "class reductionist" is harmful in that it shuts down debate and camaraderie in favor of making the 'class reductionists' political enemies.

again you're conflating who someone wants as a candidate with their stated ideological goals; i also wanted bernie to win the nomination. it doesn't mean i thought his platform was especially smart w/r/t race, and i think his loss in south carolina illustrates that ... he wasn't especially smart when it came to race. that there were ways to make his platform better on subjects that might have helped him cinch the nomination more readily. i think you could even argue, in an effort to look from the bottom-up, that it was this very *pervasive* tendency on "the white left" that allowed a candidate like bernie to get so far without doing more on that subject

in *advance* of his loss in SC

And part and parcel of this is that all party politicians to the left of center rely on the Black vote without ever doing much to talk to Black people or deal with the problems (often caused by white supremacist structures) within Black communities except by throwing small bits of money their way and saying some patronizing bullshit.

I don't know a single Black person who trusted Bernie to do anything for Black people, and that's a big fucking problem.

The best indicator of how poorly the US has handled Covid-19 is that a lot of conservatives are debasing themselves to the level where “look, it’s not *that much* worse than Europe” is meant to be a defense — we’re talking about a continent where they don’t have ice cubes!

— Matthew Yglesias (@mattyglesias) September 28, 2020

Lol at 8000 Europishes in the replies saying, ‘But we do have ice cubes!’

https://img.discogs.com/j8Eznh3_R9-24USr2lAJqwjwIWw=/450x600/smart/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/A-13732-1227553467.jpeg.jpg
no we don’t

Is this the thread where people talk about Red Scare?

Lmao they did Red Scare pic.twitter.com/3E6SLzr6Hc

— Cletus Van Damme (@Callicleez) January 9, 2021

Yeah, they've been banning a lot of vocal Trump supporters, so...

It was an inactive account. I assume Twitter's banning spree involved looking at old reported tweets that they previously hadn't acted upon, which is... interesting

I mentioned it on the Chapo thread. honestly fuck 'em

Khachiyan has been suspended before - trying to roll this into some kind of "now they're coming for the left" thing still seems like a stretch

Can’t say it’s a great loss but weird to go after an inactive account and leave someone like Andy Ngo active and verified.

oooof was not aware Ngo was still on there

Ngo claims to be a journalist, which gives him more protection in general

ugh, seeing a lot of "First they came for the fascists" chat from people online today over this Parler thing

Those are people you should ignore for the rest of your life.

xp - you could respond with, "Actually, first they came for the paedophiles, the fascists were second, maybe they should have been first though, idk."

The argument is "Who are Amazon/AWS to say what does and doesn't appear online? Isn't that a scary amount of power? What happened to an open Web? I don't agree with the views on Parker, but it sets a worrying precedent for what could be taken down next".

Then they start skirting ever closer to poppycock notions about how silencing far right views only drive them underground and make them stronger.

I find these views really troubling and puzzling, especially since they seem to be coming from educated liberal/left people I know. So I turn to ILX to make sure I'm not going completely mad here.

Disclaimer: reddit, but I found this to be an interesting discussion:

https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/kv1m0k/cmv_the_power_held_by_amazon_twitter_etc_is_a/

It’s such specious bullshit. God forbid nazi ideology gets driven underground, better put it in the mainstream where we can keep an eye on it

The educated “liberal/left” people saying this shit are the people who will *actually* say nothing when they come for the socialists the Jews the trade unionists &c. Frankly, stupid cunts.

Ban the fascists and break up the monopolies are completely congruent beliefs if you’re on the left lol

xp the main argument (away from whether all views deserve to get aired or not) is the power Amazon etc have over free speech. but it still sounds like nonsense to me somehow

Ban the fascists _and_ break up the monopolies are completely congruent beliefs if you’re on the left lol

There's also the fact that leftists and radical people on the left have actually faced much of the brunt of censorship, banning, and job loss over the years. It's Going Down was banned from Facebook this summer, as were a number of other radical organizing groups. Discussion of BDS positions is outright banned at many universities. Steven Salaita is still driving a school bus.

They already came for the radical anarchists and Marxist and socialists, and anyone who doesn't know this hasn't been paying any attention.

And more than that - all the “mysterious” deaths of high profile Ferguson protestors and organisers.

ugh, seeing a lot of "First they came for the fascists" chat from people online today over this Parler thing

― Specific Ocean Blue (dog latin),

The 'actually, didn't they already come for the paedophiles first and you said fuck all mate?' line from Sarahell seems a good response?

Otherwise, I'd go down the path of incitement, planning violence, yelling fire in cinema, but also protection of the individuals because if they're not banned then they'll do these things in full view and get picked up by law enforcement anyway so actually its preventing them coming for the fascists its for their own protection

Absolutists are always, ALWAYS, smoothbrained. Because they're not absolutists at all just ask them one questions and it falls apart

Ugh been having the “driving them underground will only make them stronger” stupid ass argument with someone I otherwise like and care about and it’s so aggravating.

Cutting off someone’s leg will only make them run faster. It’s just this appealing sounding quasi-paradoxical thing that means nothing. It’s Star Wars as politics. We have actual historical evidence that the opposite is true.

yes, it's a silly argument. the more that alt-right, Q, etc. stuff can be limited to 8chan and off of things like facebook and twitter the better, as it limits the exposure of at-risk boomers

You could even say it ought to be treated like… a virus.

There's also the fact that leftists and radical people on the left have actually faced much of the brunt of censorship, banning, and job loss over the years. It's Going Down was banned from Facebook this summer, as were a number of other radical organizing groups.

otm!

https://www.gofundme.com/f/help-jodi-stand-up-to-smith-college

Nice grift here. Gofundme was at 100k when I checked it this morning. Currently at 145k.