Free Speech and Creepy Liberalism

It's definitely a tendency that I see all around me in academia and plenty of other radical spaces... probably because like me, many of the people in those spaces are white and grew up middle class, even if they're working class now.

Seems like another round of being mad at some amorphous idea of “white left Twitter” - the only name referred to as thus far is Adolph Reed. Who is, uh, not white. Might be on Twitter though.

― Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Sunday, September 20, 2020 2:55 PM (two hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

Lol please. You want me to just list people’s names who do this?

Honestly that kind of shit is pointless anyway bc it’s specific actions, positions, ideological approaches that are the problem and as easy as it is to name certain ppl who embody this approach, cf red scare hosts or lee fang or whoever else, the pervasiveness of it is due to the fact it’s not about individual people being “bad actors” as much as it is the class-first approach being applicable to people who don’t even know they’re doing it in certain circumstances

Less 'names' than, like, actual tweets and evidence, but yeah. Otherwise it's pretty pointless?

as in, when you do name names, ie "Red Scare and Lee Fang" it's hardly a representative body. You can play that game with a million MORE clapemoji WOMEN clapemoji ICE clapemoji AGENTS liberals.

Jacobin has a huge huge readership and does this shit ALL THE TIME

so first its no people, but when you name people, no it needs to be 'representative bodies' ad infinum

how about bernie sanders' actual platform punting on reparations, for one extremely perfect example

Jacobin certainly privileges class, but that's a pretty wide gap from there to Red Scare.

Which was a point I wanted to quote but was on my phone - there's a world between a complete disavowal of 'identity politics' and the 'precedence' of class. Like...

This seems like a useful reminder:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/19/upshot/race-class-white-and-black-men.html

― pomenitul, Sunday, September 20, 2020 3:11 PM (three hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

cops also don't give a fuck about the class status of black people (esp. men) when they are profiling "suspicious" or "threatening" behavior

― sarahell, Sunday, September 20, 2020 3:24 PM (three hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

I have never encountered a leftist who would disagree with either of these posts? It's a weird stick with which to beat the left.

no one said "major left platforms completely disavow identity politics", you're reversing the argument to make us the absolutists when it's the reed quote that asserts absolutely that no one prefers to prioritize class!

so first its no people, but when you name people, no it needs to be 'representative bodies' ad infinum

how about bernie sanders' actual platform punting on reparations, for one extremely perfect example

Finding a handful of assholes and attacking an entire spectrum because of them (despite that entire spectrum having little to do with the assholes) is not particularly useful.

Sanders was bad on some things (though, uh, got some bad news about Biden and reparations) - but to take another body that has been name-dropped, Jacobin has published pieces calling for reparations IIRC?

The idea that the left is primarily an agent in a class war, defined by economics, is about as uncontoversial as you can get. Identity politics are a minor part of mainstream left wing politics.

are you speaking of worldwide politics or about the more parochial politics of the USA? because in the USA identity politics are far more influential than the politics of class.

Ah, good point. The two party system barely has a spectrum for economics, does it?

Identity politics are a minor part of mainstream left wing politics.

Liberal identity politics, certainly - but that's kind of the point.

The charge that D-40 seems to be levying is that the American left is insufficiently concerned with anything but class, ie it's not anti-racist, anti-misogny, pro-LGBTQ enough. He's not being very specific (other than Red Scare and Lee Fang) but this is usually charged because the left doesn't engage in those liberal identity politics for a variety of reasons (such as, yes, privileging class and economics) - but it's all pretty ridiculous in the face of what American liberalism itself actually offers, like Joe Biden - who very evidently has never given a flying fuck about identity politics and has to be strong-armed into not reminding people of his openly racist friends.

Lol @ you attacking joe biden under the assumption I’m concerned w this from a liberal POV ... take a break from the podcasts dude

the left doesn't engage in those liberal identity politics for a variety of reasons

The inherent assumption that identity politics are “liberal” (while the left is, of course, to the left of liberal) shows exactly how class-first leftism is pervasive; it posits any opposition to prioritizing class as being not sufficiently left (aka liberal) bc anyone critiquing the left must be doing so from a place of (liberal) identity politics. The notion there might be a “left” that doesn’t prioritize class is discounted

And notice I’m saying “prioritize” not bc I dont think class is important — quite the contrary and there are plenty of circles where I’d argue it needs to be prioritized to a greater degree— but it certainly doesn’t outnumber the amt of chapo fanboys I seem to encounter (& I’m not characterizing their podcast as I don’t listen to it) who seem determined to characterize any critique along “identerian” lines as being “liberal”

... or it's about specifically referring to liberal identity politics, in which representation in and of itself is a primary goal and class and economy are stripped from the equation.

The point is to recognize the radical socialist origins of the very phrase and that when you strip it of the liberal part, you necessarily recognize that class and identity cannot be separated.

the amt of chapo fanboys I seem to encounter

This is back to the mad at an amorphous Twitter blob issue - which, fine, if you keep running into assholes you keep running into assholes. I don't see anyone mention Red Scare at all and Lee Fang only recently because he publicly shit himself. But it's an enormous stretch to turn the assholes you run into into a question of what is "pervasive on the white left." Or the left in general, for that matter.

was deej even talking about “liberal identity politics” to begin with or did you contort the conversation to be about it

i am looking forward to the lucy football metaphor in your next post

Is there another country where the left is as committed to idpol as the US?

we did have this thing called slavery for too long

Not saying it’s a bad thing, mind you. Different histories call for different foci.

This is back to the mad at an amorphous Twitter blob issue - which, fine, if you keep running into assholes you keep running into assholes. I don't see anyone mention Red Scare at all and Lee Fang only recently because he publicly shit himself. But it's an enormous stretch to turn the assholes you run into into a question of what is "pervasive on the white left." Or the left in general, for that matter.

― Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Monday, September 21, 2020 2:29 AM (eight hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

Oh my god ... these people, who definitely don’t exist according to reed, except that I can name plenty of them and suspect I’m actually arguing with some obstinate ones in this very thread, apparently don’t count as “pervasive”

these people, who definitely don’t exist according to reed, except that I can name plenty of them

except you named Lee Fang and Red Scare. One reporter (not a socialist, natch) and one podcast duo are not pervasive, no.

In any case, let's turn to the very next paragraph Reed wrote after what you quoted!

Although there are no doubt random, dogmatic class reductionists out there, the simple fact is that no serious tendency on the left contends that racial or gender injustices or those affecting LGBTQ people, immigrants, or other groups as such do not exist, are inconsequential, or otherwise should be downplayed or ignored. Nor do any reputable voices on the left seriously argue that racism, sexism, homophobia, and xenophobia are not attitudes and ideologies that persist and cause harm.

Is Red Scare something people take seriously? When did that start?

I've no idea what their numbers are though tbf!

was deej even talking about “liberal identity politics” to begin with or did you contort the conversation to be about it

Identity politics are a minor part of mainstream left wing politics.

― everything,

This is actually the post you're responding to: Free Speech and Creepy Liberalism

except you named Lee Fang and Red Scare. One reporter (not a socialist, natch) and one podcast duo are not pervasive, no.

the popularity of these figures on the left is emblematic of the pervasiveness of this perspective, yes, but also you keep contradicting the multiple people in this thread who said they encounter these people day-to-day in order to support a totally unsupported idea that the entire idea of class reductionism is a liberal myth intended to undermine "The left," the same left whose "identity politics" you see entirely as a liberal plot

This is back to the mad at an amorphous Twitter blob issue - which, fine, if you keep running into assholes you keep running into assholes

so, can I say that assholes are pervasive ... or do you need a census or exhaustive academic data set to define "pervasive" ?

Some clue that they are, in any way, indicative of or influential on the actions and beliefs of the American left would be good?

Or as Reed put it - "the simple fact is that no serious tendency on the left contends that racial or gender injustices or those affecting LGBTQ people, immigrants, or other groups as such do not exist, are inconsequential, or otherwise should be downplayed or ignored."

Red Scare is not "the white left" - their calling card is being obnoxiously opposed to the largest left-wing group in the US today.

as table pointed out upthread (about a month ago) -- that whole bit from Reed contradicts itself near the end, when he basically downplays the injustices of marginalized folx with a "rising tide will lift all boats" narrative.

xpost they are certainly not a "serious tendency" anyway

i think it's both/and.

have liberals used "identity" concerns in order to muddy the waters and kneecap left wing politics? yes. just look at hillary clinton's admonishment of bernie sanders: "if we broke up the banks, would that end racism?"

at the same time, is it true that people who dream of "broad based class politics" downplay the specific concerns of minorities because they think it is getting in the way of their project? and furthermore, do they often smear these concerns by assuming, without basis, that they are always instances of liberal mystification?

yes.

He doesn’t do that, though?

What he does say is

Black Democratic and other neoliberal elites have shown again and again in their sustained denunciations of the Sanders program since 2016 that they ultimately rely on race-specific arguments to oppose broadly redistributive initiatives that would improve the circumstances of African American working people along with all others.

Which is... objectively true? We saw it with Medicare For All concern trolling about medical billing unemployment.

That was many xps

i american politics, and also in division 1 message board posting, people on all sides are distorting one another in completely ridiculous ways. and they're doing it because they want to assert the primacy of their own treasured narrative. it's for psychological comfort as much as anything else. the narrative is what gives their politics shape and meaning; a threat to it is a threat to themselves.

many ilxors argue in this fashion.

Some clue that they are, in any way, indicative of or influential on the actions and beliefs of the American left would be good?

they are indicative of the actions and beliefs of the American left as I personally experience it. I cannot supply you with any data other than that. But the way I see the schism is, on one side, you have the white dudes who are telling marginalized groups, "when the revolution comes, things will be better for everyone, we white dudes got this, wait your turn" and marginalized groups saying, "we are so done with waiting our turns"

how dare you

xp

tbf the white leftists I see are not discouraging BLM organizing but more scoffing at the idea that a Kamala Harris vice presidency does anything real for POC

A Kamala Harris vice presidency is neither a huge step up nor a negligible triviality. It gives a POC another seat at the table. It's not the most powerful seat, but the table where she would sit is a powerful table.

why do you guys keep bringing up kamala and joe biden like this is an argument about them? no one here is trying to conflate "identity politics" (the conceptualization of which is more of a 'myth' than class reductionism to be real) with liberal politicians except the people trying to minimize the concerns of "identity politics" by conflating them with liberal politicians

I get that the left has a (much-discussed) concern w the ways "identity politics" are used to smuggle in neolib ideologies and no one I know denies that happens but those same ppl on the left seem completely unwilling to accept the notion that it works the other way too: that class reductionism to varying degrees minimizes the concerns of people who aren't white. again, the sanders' campaign which sees an outer horizon for class change dismissing reparations as a pipe dream is the firmest articulation of this tendency on the left you could ask for

the sanders' campaign which sees an outer horizon for class change dismissing reparations as a pipe dream is the firmest articulation of this tendency on the left you could ask for

High level politicians (president, governors, congressional reps and senators) will approach the idea of reparations for slavery and Jim Crow in much the same way that such politicians approached the idea of gay marriage, gingerly and with extreme caution, far more likely to give private than public encouragement, until a movement for reparations can display enough public sympathy and political muscle to indemnify those politicians who come out publicly in favor of it.

That's how US politics work on the practical level. Show them some strength and they'll let you clear the path and follow along a few steps behind you.

why do you guys keep bringing up kamala and joe biden like this is an argument about them? no one here is trying to conflate "identity politics" (the conceptualization of which is more of a 'myth' than class reductionism to be real) with liberal politicians except the people trying to minimize the concerns of "identity politics" by conflating them with liberal politicians

― ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Monday, September 21, 2020 11:09 AM (thirty minutes ago)

otm.

and the "solidarity" imperative works both ways. Maybe this was just a fringe thing that I saw, but after the massive uprising after the Floyd shooting, there were a number of left dudes I'm friends with posting about how "BLM are corporate sell-outs" (like, hey, Maximum R&R for president). But none of these dudes were considering the option of "how about the left practice solidarity with a black-led coalition" ... not saying all white left dudes are/were of this opinion. Just that the people who were espousing this recalcitrance were white cis-dudes.

That might say more about the left dudes you’re friends with than “the left” or “left dudes”?

And, sorry if this is a tangent but, while not super immersed in activist groups, I am part of various groups for non-profit leaders and there is a lot of discussion and prominence being given to Equity and Inclusion, and centering marginalized voices, and putting those voices (and people) in positions of leadership. And that's mostly where I'm coming from with my criticism of "class-centered" activism and "class reductionism".

and i also realize that I live in one of the most leftist parts of the U.S. and there is definitely a bubble here that is often not reflective of the country as a whole, though, historically, we tend to be "ahead of the curve" lol