The Band.

That two or three things I know about JRR thread has a link to a pretty tough takedown of some of his solo work by A. Sotosyn

the yawye soundtrack is ace, but have never made it through the whole film (was all up on youtube at some point)

couple of other band/tiny tim tracks on this

seem to recall dylan hooking up with the band was a direct result of their recording with j hammond jr?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDjRoKIvYVU

I've seen pointed out that he is sort of simultaneously two types of players, an electric blues guy and also a Curtis Mayfield-styled funky rhythm player

Yeah this is totally spot on wrt to Robbie's playing

I watched the movie last night, the most notable aspect for me was how large a role his wife Dominique has in the film, usually spouses tend to be erased completely or at most referred to but rarely seen or heard from.

The movie is well made and the there was a fair amount of backstage pics/footage I hadn't seen and a very welcome appearance by Ronnie Hawkins, cussing and talking about coke and pussy vs everyone else bloviating about the magic of music or some shit, the narrative it follows is pretty Behind the Music-level.

Robbie is very actorly and smooth and rehearsed which makes him seem like he is trying to sell you something (himself) even if a lot of times he seems very genuine and honest.

Garth is generally praised in an "also appearing" manner, that basically Garth & Robbie held everything together post 69.

Danko is barely mentioned at all or remarked on, unless he was crashing a car (and watching the old footage man he was a beautiful man)

Richard is a sad drunk, everyone is kind of "whaddya gonna do?"

The Levon portrayal is really jarring, it starts with Levon & Robbie as very tight bros but pretty soon Levon is painted as a junkie, paranoid, hick who let bitterness consume him while Robbie was out here living his best life, haters to the left, etc. Some of the way footage of Levon playing live and grimacing is paired with voice-overs about what a bitter asshole he was is unsubtle and fucking gross frankly.

Also for all everyone talking about how Levon bitched about how they were getting screwed by management & accountants, no one ever refutes that on camera.

But at the same time the movie ends with "Dixie" from the Last Waltz

The end of the Band is basically Robbie lamenting how fucked up everyone was and how if only someone had written a song he would have kept the thing going. It is very clear though that Robbie hated the road and really wanted to spend time with his family, even as early as the Dylan tour (which I think tends to get underrated a far as scarring everyone in the band having to go out night after night getting booed playing with Dylan)

W/r/t to Levon v Robbie and songwriting credits, part of the issue is the way songwriters traditionally are credited and remunerated is fundamentally not how rock bands work, esp bands like the Band where one person might write the lyric & melody but obv lots of other hands are involving in the arranging and turning it into an actual "song", which is def a skill and an important aspect to writing that is hugely underrated.

It certainly won't change anyone's opinion and though interesting in spots I don't know that I would call it a crucial view.

yeah the lack of garth in the movie (not even a talking head) was bizarre, though he always seemed to be a guy who didn't seek the spotlight.

Garth doesn't seem in the best of health in this little feature from a few years ago, so may well not have been up to participating:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBc_4dPQusI

By a lot of accounts it really was Manuel's decline that did them in. He couldn't always play or sing, and when he could it was nowhere near what he used to be capable of singing. That and the band literally moving apart really ended whatever magical thing was going on with them. Same thing sort of happened with the Beatles and other bands. You spend every waking hour together in a house, on a bus, on a stage. Then you go your separate ways and it's harder to get on the same page.

https://nationalpost.com/entertainment/music/as-tiff-opens-with-a-documentary-about-his-life-robbie-robertson-opens-up-about-his-past-present-and-future

Some of the difficulty arose from alcohol and drugs: For the film, Roher spoke with Dominique Robertson, Robbie’s ex-wife, who was with him during The Band years and was nearly killed when singer/keyboardist Richard Manuel, after a few drinks, totalled his Mustang. Dominique, who would become a psychotherapist and addiction counsellor in the 1980s, says in the movie that while her husband was no angel, he lacked the genetic predisposition to become addicted — unlike Manuel, Helm and singer/bassist Rick Danko.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/entertainment/movies/2020/02/27/robbie-robertson-salutes-band-bittersweet-once-were-brothers/4881038002/

In what certainly feels like a pivotal moment, Dominique Robertson, the guitarist's wife, recalls one night a drunk Manuel convinced her he would "sober up behind the wheel" and ended up driving them both into a ditch. Then Helm got in his car and raced to the scene of the accident and crashed into a parked car when he got there.

Looking back on it a lifetime later, Robertson says, "Richard could've killed Dominique. What do you say? It pissed me off."

The Last Waltz got me into the Band, then a short while later, I became disappointed that Richard Manuel barely made the film because he seemed especially integral on their first three (i.e. best) albums, not to mention one of their three main vocalists. It wasn't until much later that I heard about his alcoholism, especially on his singing, though he could usually pull off a song or two before his voice gradually deteriorated.

The late Peter Stone Brown (a long-time "Dylanologist" who was also a huge fan of the Band) gave what seemed like a pretty even-handed review of the Band's history in his reviews for "The Last Waltz"'s 2002 reissue and later Robertson's memoir. Unfortunately, his blog has been having constant issues, but you can find google cache links to both of the relevant reviews.

He was someone who knew of the group through Dylan even before they released an album, and this seemed enlightening in terms of how people might've perceived them over time:

"The image The Band presented on Big Pink was that of 19th Century outlaws, and there was also a big picture of them with their families—a distinct slap in the face to every rebel rock band at the time. Looking at the photo and hearing the songs, it was easy to think these were clean-living country guys who went to church on Sunday. Thirty years later books started appearing that blew that image to bits. They were partying, drug-taking, drinking maniacs who regularly wrecked their cars and had a hard time keeping anything together."

I think the most remarkable thing about the Band was their impact on a lot of their *British* peers. Like, iirc, the Beatles and Eric Clapton/Derek & the Dominos, acts who obviously heard something unique in the Band but couldn't quite put their finger on it (or, like most, including even the Band after a short bit, pull it off).

Especially Richard Thompson and The Fairport Convention, who DID manage to pull it off.

It's been forever since I've read but I remember loving Barney Hoskyns's Across The Great Divide, which I should probably re-read

I wonder if the Band influenced the Dead, or was the turn with Workingman's Dead more attributable to the CSN connection via Crosby?

I mean, I know about Garcia's bluegrass roots, but that's not what they're doing in 1970.

I guess Festival Express is an answer.

It's been forever since I've read but I remember loving Barney Hoskyns's Across The Great Divide, which I should probably re-read

great and v sad book.

Other things I've read by him seemed good, but since he got that wrong about Dylan and Tiny Tim having just met, when Dylan's contradiction is right there in Chronicles, makes me wonder what else he got wrong.
xp Festival Express, yes! Forgot about that--wiki sez: The train journey between cities ultimately became a combination of non-stop jam sessions and partying fueled by alcohol. One highlight of the documentary is a drunken jam session featuring The Band's Rick Danko, the Grateful Dead's Jerry Garcia and Bob Weir, New Riders of the Purple Sage's John Dawson, as well as Janis Joplin.[4][6]
Been listening to the 50th Anniversary WD, which sounds great, and now can hear def. Band-compatible sonic etc. sensibilities, though of course still much more spare than Big Pink---Dead were on best behavior after financial blowout of prev studio adventures. "Black Peter," climbing and then slamming into and through those choruses, seems Bandworthy as Hell. Though they did credit Croz and maybe Nash with teaching them to sing harmonies, so also that in the sound, without getting too sweet.

Greil Marcus mentioned, maybe in Mystery Train, somebody else's article, from late 60s or early 70s, re Manuel, "measuring him for a straitjacket," so word was already getting out, to some extent, however pre-Behind The Music in delivery.

xpost Oh, yeah, Fairport for sure, though (sensibly) from a distinctly British perspective, with the exception, perhaps, of the Bunch album.

Right, that’s what RT says, they were trying to do a British version.

I think the most remarkable thing about the Band was their impact on a lot of their *British* peers. Like, iirc, the Beatles and Eric Clapton/Derek & the Dominos, acts who obviously heard something unique in the Band but couldn't quite put their finger on it (or, like most, including even the Band after a short bit, pull it off).

― Josh in Chicago, Friday, September 18, 2020 10:56 AM (two hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

So many UK bands wanted to be the Band...or, in Clapton's case, be in the Band (he asked to join). The impact of the Band in general, and Big Pink in particular, on the UK scene was pretty massive: Clapton broke up Cream and formed Blind Faith, the Beatles' did the Get Back thing, Traffic holed up together in a thatched-roof cottage, Jack Bruce's "Theme From An Imaginary Western," the Small Faces' "The Autumn Stone," Humble Pie's Town & Country, about half of Let It Bleed, the Kinks' Muswell Hillbillies...can't think of an obviously Band-influenced Who record, though (maybe "Let's See Action"). Hell, even Roger Waters claimed Big Pink "affected Pink Floyd deeply, deeply, deeply." I don't hear it, but that's on me, not them.

i can hear a tiny bit of big pink influence in atom heart mother, now that i think about it.

Workingman's Dead was definitely Band-influenced, and was actually released prior to the Festival Express tour.

can't think of an obviously Band-influenced Who record, though (maybe "Let's See Action")

Those post-Tommy, pre/post-Who's Next songs "Water", "Naked Eye", "Join Together" might be some Band influence

the who covered marvin gaye's "don't do it," also covered by the band, but i'm not sure who covered it first

I was thinking that too but I'd bet that both bands played it back in their R&B days as High Numbers or the Hawks

Also any Band influence on the Who was probably all second hand Townshend aping Clapton

Don't forget Delaney & Bonnie and Friends, which incl. (though maybe not at the same time?) all of the soon-to-be Derek and the Dominoes, and their crucial "Layla" guest, Duane Allman, also George Harrison, Leon Russell, Dave Mason, Rita Coolidge (wiki adds King Curtis, though I don't remember him on the live tracks I've heard). No Band members that I know of (they were good w Bobby Charles and Ringo, Garth later w Marianne Faithfull, although solos could go on a while).
Seems like there was a fair amount of Band-ish influence in Clapton's 70s solo albums, a taste that also led him to songs of JJ Cale, Don Williams, even John Martyn ("May You Never"). Oh yeah, and Sign Language, which sounded pretty good at the time---haven't heard it since---and, as wiki sez:
The album was recorded at The Band's Shangri-la Studios in March 1976, and included involvement from all five members of The Band; Rick Danko shared vocals with Clapton on "All Our Past Times," which he co-wrote with Clapton. The album also includes a duet with Bob Dylan on his otherwise unreleased song "Sign Language."

"Dominos," sorry!

I'm sorry, I meant No Reason To Cry, Clapton album w Band members.

I always forget that Rick, Levon, and Garth were all in the first Ringo All-Star band.

Those post-Tommy, pre/post-Who's Next songs "Water", "Naked Eye", "Join Together" might be some Band influence

― chr1sb3singer, Friday, September 18, 2020 2:36 PM (fifty-six minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

the who covered marvin gaye's "don't do it," also covered by the band, but i'm not sure who covered it first

― i got a homogenic björk wine farmer permabanned (voodoo chili), Friday, September 18, 2020 2:40 PM (fifty-two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I was thinking that too but I'd bet that both bands played it back in their R&B days as High Numbers or the Hawks

― chr1sb3singer, Friday, September 18, 2020 2:42 PM (fifty-one minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

"Join Together" does have a slight Band resemblance, and yep, the Who covered "Baby Don't You Do It" in 1964 (as the High Numbers), and in 1971. But the post-Tommy songs for the unreleased EP don't strike me as particularly Band-like. "Time Is Passing" and "Love Ain't For Keeping" seem to show some Band influence, though.

Perhaps this will refresh your memory.

Not to mention this

Doesn’t work on zing though:(

robbie has barely played live in 45 years; he appeared on SNL in 87 to promote the first album, was at some Stratocaster fest in europe with other big shots in the 90s, and he showed up and played (not very well) "Don't Do it" at one of those Last Waltz reconstructions in Nashville with one of those neo-Outlaw guys (jamey Johnson?) with Don Was on bass. He has never toured for one of his records… when someone way upthread said he doesn't seem "charming," it's more that he seems too charming… he's a HUGE schmoozer, an oily/slick networker; one would think for the past 40 years or so, Dylan would prefer the company of the other guys in the Band… and in terms of his playing, it seems like it was him and Bloomfield in the U.S. and Canada that you could put in the mid 60s white blues company of EC, Beck, Peter green… and it is especially unusual in that doc that Domninique, from whom he has been divorced for at least 35 years, is a character witness (my god is she gorgeous)…

as it've said before, maybe on this thread, the 2016 book, as well as the doc and the 2005 box set, has him trying to clear his name and to go over his version of the history of the band over and over again… he doesn't like to say that the other guys got back together… in any case, his life after the Last Waltz would be pretty fucking interesting to hear about… I hope he lets go of this shit now and moves on to the events of the last 45 goddamn years

Watching the Once Were Brothers now. So far pretty conventional– Jann Wenner is one of the talking heads!– unlike, say, the Other Music doc.

Okay, things just got a little interesting when Ronnie Hawkins showed up with teenage Levon in tow.

Hadn't known about this Geffen/Asylum interlude. Hadn't know that John P Hammond had a different middle initial from his father John H. Hammond. The way John P. Hammond tells the story, Dylan wanted the whole Band right away but I thought there was another version where he at first he only wanted Robbie but Robbie held out and said "Levon's got to come too" (and maybe all the rest of the guys as well) but I don't remember where I heard that.

For that Forest Hills show Dylan did in 65 the band was Robbie, Levon, Al Kooper and Harvey Brooks. Thought this was some sort of tryout for Robbie and Levon.

Okay, the longer version of this last thing is in Robbie's book.

Watched all the credits roll and saw that Rob Bowman got one which is good, that guy is pretty thorough.

This turned out to be worth seeing. It's very clearly from Robbie's point of view but has some other voices to balance it out even if they don't contradict him. Who knew that two of the most important ones would be Ronnie Hawkins and, as mentioned upthread, Robbie's ex-wife, Dominique.

Their son Sebastian has a very long Wikipedia entry, which includes mention of his friend Daniel Davies, son of Dave. Perhaps they could form some kind of supergroup with Rufus Wainwright and Teddy Thompson.

John P was often billed as John Jr. while his father was still around, maybe so no semi-informed would think the old man was gonna play.
I also heard that it was Mary Martin, not the Peter Pan star/Larry Hagman's Mom alas, but Grossman's associate, who got Dylan to go see the Hawks, as Wiki sez, with sources noted re all this (caveat on top: "This article needs additional citations...," but this section seems okay):

As Dylan finished the sessions for his 1965 "Positively 4th Street" single, he wanted to reproduce on-stage the same sound that he had polished in the studio.[1] He soon began to gather a pick-up band, with several musicians, such as bassist Harvey Brooks and organist Al Kooper, that had played during the sessions for Highway 61 Revisited.[1] However, the bulk of the players came from Ronnie Hawkins' former backing group, Levon and the Hawks. They impressed Dylan when he saw them play in Toronto, at the direction of Albert Grossman's staffer, Mary Martin, who told him to visit the group at Le Coq d'Or Tavern, a Yonge Street club. (Robbie Robertson recalled that it was the Friar's Tavern, a nearby establishment.)[2] An alternate version of the first meeting, put forward by Williamson, suggests that he saw them in a Jersey Shore club.[1] Drummer Levon Helm and guitarist Robbie Robertson were quickly invited to join Dylan's backing group.[2] Only two shows into the initial tour in North America, Kooper left the band due to stress and safety concerns.[3][4] He and Brooks were promptly replaced by the remaining Hawks (bassist Rick Danko, pianist Richard Manuel and organist Garth Hudson). Drummer Levon Helm, too, disillusioned by the constantly hostile reception from audiences, jumped ship in November, getting replaced by session drummer Bobby Gregg.[2][5] Gregg eventually left the band as the tour progressed, and Sandy Konikoff replaced him on drums, but Konikoff also left when Dylan traveled to Australia.[2] Former Johnny Rivers drummer Mickey Jones remained with the band throughout the rest of the tour.
---from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Dylan_World_Tour_1966

Of course, just because she told him to check out the whole group, doesn't mean that younger John *didn't* take Robertson to meet him during sessions or whatever it was. Maybe that meeting inclined D. to follow her advice, even though she was just, like, a woman.

Mary Martin honored by the Country Music Hall of Fame:
...Jay Orr, a museum staff member who hosted the program, listed a few of Martin’s important achievements in his introduction. “She played a key role in connecting Bob Dylan with the Band; she managed Leonard Cohen, Van Morrison, Rodney Crowell, and Vince Gill at crucial stages of their careers; she signed Emmylou Harris to Warner Bros. Records at the outset of her illustrious Hall of Fame run. Then Mary came to Nashville where she touched lives inside and outside the music business.”
---from https://countrymusichalloffame.org/plan-your-visit/exhibits-activities/public-programs/the-louise-scruggs-memorial-forum/mary-martin/

Robbie’s version of the story as told in Testimony is that they first met Dylan briefly through Hammond, that Mary Martin was working in the Grossman office and pushing for the Hawks, at some point Robbie was asked to come to meet Dylan at the office, they then took some guitars from the Grossman office and went to Grossman’s house to play a few tunes together, Robbie realized this was an audition and said “but I already have my own band!” Then there was a further meeting with some other management in which a full band audition was discussed and Robbie mentioned the Toronto gig, so Dylan- and Sara! - flew up to Toronto. Dylan came to a couple of gigs and after the customers left they all played Dylan material together to see how it went.

His version is sufficiently detailed to have the ring of truth, mostly, factoring whatever Robbie-centricity one attributes to him.

In the documentary they only mention Mickey Jones, no Bobby Gregg as a Levon substitute, never mind Sandy Stranger, which was confusing.

Couldn’t figure out who that Williamson was, James Williamson?