Rolling Music Theory Thread

Hm, yeah, it's interesting - with most 12 tone music, row structures are just a system for generating pitch material; they don't play the role in form that scale degrees and harmonic function do in tonal music. So when bringing out the phrasing in Smith Brindle, I'm not primarily thinking about rows, it's true. I do when composing certain pieces. I was actually startled once when I found that a performer had done a full row analysis of a piece I had written for him! I think it did help him.

I put my row down, flip it and reverse it
Sweiv yttihs laer emos desuopse zeloub
Sweiv yttihs laer emos desuopse zeloub

this is an all-time classic post

I signed up for the free month of Scribd so I could read the JSS issue that was responding to Ewell: https://fr.scribd.com/document/471711685/Journal-of-Schenkerian-Studies-responses

The Jackson piece starts out making some potentially interesting points about how Schenker's views changed over time and then... it really gets as bad as described in the video. "Ewell's scapegoating of Schenker, Schenkerians, and Schenkerian analysis occurs in the much larger context of Black-on-Jew attacks in the United States" (topic sentence for a whole paragraph) is mindbogglingly appalling.

Whoa

I had no idea that this went this far. I really want to investigate this. Or maybe I don't? Feels like a lot of emotional investment into something that I wouldn't feel comfortable forming (let alone expressing) an opinion about.

I had this feeling before! I remember Audra McDonald was rewriting "Porgy And Bess", calling it "The Gershwins' Porgy And Bess" and changing the plot elements to make it less offensive to Black people. I remember Steven Sondheim writing an open letter to McDonald decrying what she was doing. Then I attended a Daphne Brooks lecture at PopCon about this whole dispute.

Brooks obviously thinks Sondheim is an asshole and I'm inclined, on this topic, to agree. But then I remember Brooks arguing that Gershwin himself could claim no authorship over "Porgy And Bess"-- this opera's authorship belongs entirely to the African-American community. I remember feeling Extremely Challenged by this viewpoint-- as somebody who has studied a lot of Gershwin's scores, I'm privy to his genius, the guy was a monster-- and as somebody who writes scored music, I'm aware of the insane amount of work it would take to create something as monumental as "Porgy And Bess"-- and furthermore, you're literally talking about the greatest American opera ever written? But OK, I'm still listening, Daphne Brooks! (I think my ego was somewhat slighted, thinking of how I've spent most-of-my-life-at-this-point with digital pen-to-score, feeling like Brooks might not have fully grasped how much WORK composing an opera actually involves)

Brooks went on to describe the genesis of Gershwin's compositional process, collecting hymns from Black churches in the Carolinas. I remember the moment that Brooks said, as an aside, paraphrased, "Gershwin writing Porgy And Bess-- this is just another example of Jewish-Americans using anti-Black racism to ingratiate themselves to the white urbanites", and I felt like the entire chalkboard in my brain got erased. "I am not allowed to have an opinion about this topic," my brain screamed, and I don't. I kind of feel the same way about Ewell vs. Schenker. Very interested, but trepidatious to get so emotionally and intellectually involved in something I probably won't allow myself to form an opinion about.

I watched the Q&A about parallel P5s and, although the answer is fine, I guess the things I would want to elaborate on are that: i) yes, avoiding these is part of the sound of 18th century chorales and not part of the sound of 60s garage rock but it's not just a random choice. There's a reason why it's part of the sound of Baroque and Classical four-part writing, which is that a balance of melody and harmony is sought such that the independence of each voice is preserved while they also form vertical harmonies; parallel perfect consonances make the voices sound fused together, which works against this. If you want a similar balance in a different style, this could still be a good way to achieve it, which you can see in e.g. some softer Beatles songs. Conversely, fusing multiple voices together in parallel perfect consonances makes them sound more forceful and unified, which is why it works in heavier styles of rock, for instance. ii) Whoever told you that parallel fourths are poor even in 18th century counterpoint was wrong wrong wrong.

I am not nearly as well versed in music history or more than cursory music theory compared to you guys but as an African-American classical baritone who has sung selections from Porgy and Bess in small concerts, I would like to say that the idea that Gershwin has no authorship over Porgy and Bess is 200% horseshit regardless of your ethnic background.

I'm interested in more examples of pop songs with clear tonics that avoid or significantly delay the I chord.

Got this from a Drew Nobile paper but - "Jane Says": the melody is 100% centred around D and largely arpeggiates the D triad. The harmony cycles between G and A (IV and V) for the entire song. (In the video version, there's a D chord at the very beginning before they get to the song.)

A's don't even land more frequently over the A chord, nor do Ds land more frequently over the G chord, I don't think.

Weirdly, the bridge is centred melodically around A in the studio version but stays in D in the video version.

I feel like the arpeggiating of D is basically happenstance. That it doesn't give any sense of D as something you anticipate or as an underlying key. The A and the F# seem to be more about the ninth and the major seventh harmonies on G. And then the lines that end on E (which is not part of the D major triad) toward the end of the verse as an emphasis on an added sixth harmony.

That blue note in the bridge, the C natural, is really cool. He hits a C# right before it - "She gets mad/And she STARTS to CRY"

Hey, welcome back!

The two lines that end on E put the E over the A chord so idk how you'd hear that. And Ds and F#s appear over the A chord as often as the As and F#s appear over the G chord. Any time there's a G in the melody, it is a dissonant 7th above the A chord that falls downward to F# and then to D - if there is a centre or resolution in "but if he comes back again"/"tell him to wait right here for me", it is surely not on the Gs on "he comes" and "wait right". Those are tensions. I don't see anything at all in the melody to indicate a G centre.

2xp

Sorry, don't mean to be snippy. The sense of tonality and anticipation is definitely blurred because of the disconnect between melody and harmony so I see what you mean but I really can't hear most of the melody as chordal extensions when there's never any resolution to G and the arpeggiation is so clearly the main structuring principle. The F# never functions like a leading note.

This thread led to an imo great discussion with a former ilxor btw, about this song and "Dreams" (and "Man on the Moon"):

Only clicked today that the melody is in D and mostly arpeggiates the D triad but there is no D chord (I) in the song. The harmony just cycles between the G and A (IV and V) chords, w no real connection to the melody.#musictheory #altrock #janesaddictionhttps://t.co/KuI5kGOd32

— Sundar Subramanian (@SundarSubrama13) September 25, 2020

Oh, I definitely do not think there's any sense of G being the center. I could see ending the song on A if you had to end it on something, lol.

The two lines that end on E put the E over the A chord so idk how you'd hear that.

No, the first one anticipates the A chord.

I wasn't saying As and F#s only happen on the G chord, just that when they do, it sounds like an emphasis on a non-chordal tone much more so than anything to do with anticipating D or spelling out that non-existent D major triad as an underlying center. And yeah, you're absolutely right that there are notes like F# and B that are emphasized over the A chord as well.

You know how there are ragas where you have a scale and then you have important tones that aren't necessarily tonic/third/fifth? I think this is like that, mixolydian mode on A with an emphasis on the sixth in particular and the fourth a little too.

Oh, that's interesting. bVII-I definitely could be a Mixolydian cadence but the metrical placement makes it hard for me to hear A as the I, since G is always on the downbeat.

Right!

Not that Rob Thomas's ears should be dispositive regarding anything but it is interesting (if unpleasant) to consider his version. He wimped out and sang it a fifth lower (so the chords are, or should be, C-D and the melody is built around the G triad in my hearing) - but look what he does to the first chord. He plays the C chord in second inversion (with G in the bass) and adds a 9th (D) as the highest voice, making it similar to a Gsus chord (with an add6). I think that suggests that he probably heard G as a centre.

https://youtu.be/6BPgTkuDU-0

I guess, as with the Corrs's version of "Dreams", the cover is imo less interesting because it is more conventional - but the conventionality does indicate something to me.

Ha, in this live version, Jane's played it a semitone lower but they not only introduce the song with a vamp on the Db chord but actually end the song with a cadence on the Db triad, making it clear that the Gb and Ab chords were IV and V!

https://youtu.be/-PzoKyv9fvk

Wait, I was getting too excited about my thesis. They ends it on the Gb, which supports the Lydian hearing.

Clearly I need to watch TV and let my ears rest.

Dreams is in A natural minor. They resolve to the A minor chord twice in the instrumental bridge before the see-saw from F to G resumes.

Yeah, A minor is what I was saying - thanks for spotting that in the bridge, though. Also, welcome if you're a new poster and hi if you're a new name for an old poster!

Yeah, welcome!

They ends it on the Gb, which supports the Lydian hearing.

tbf every band was ending songs with a ringing IV chord in '97

I hear "Jane Says" as IV-V as well and not Lydian. it's hard for me to feel any piece of music as truly Lydian though

Helen Reddy recently passed away, and it reminded me how much I love the chord progression in 'I Am Woman'. It feels like a classic country music modulation when the verse goes to a flat 3rd to set up the chorus in F. At least that's how I hear it playing, with the song being in G.

i thought about "landslide" just now and how the melody strays from the repeating chord structure. thinking about what the "correct" chords would be. this just popped into my head so i haven't actually dug into it at all but to my ears it sounds like it could be re-harmonized.

(i mean the verses)

Hm, we were singing/playing it recently and I just checked the sheet music - the verses mostly seem built around chord members to me. The chorus strays a little more, although a lot of it can just be explained as suspensions and anticipations. What were you thinking of?

specifically the "i saw my reflection in the snow covered hills" part

It seems to be the standard Buckingham/Nicks "withholding the I" idea that happens in "Dreams" and "I Think I'm In Trouble" and probably many others. The melody outlines the I chord but the chords themselves dodge it-- in "Landslide"'s verses we're going IV - I6 - ii - I6, that inversion is enough to feint the ear, I think.

Interesting: you would intuitively hear the Eb-Bb/D-Cm7-Bb/D progression as I-V6-vi-V6 in Eb and in the first verse, the melody mostly does outline the Eb chord. In the second verse, a lot of the Ebs in the melody become Ds and there's more of a suggestion of the Bb chord. It's not obvious to me that Bb is the tonal centre until the chorus, though, when the Bb chord finally appears on strong bars.

Wait, by "second verse" I meant the part that starts "mirror in the sky..." and by "first verse", I meant the part before that, although those aren't the same, actually.

Actually, the line crüt mentions is the first that outlines Bb instead of Eb.

I posted a question over here that may be of interest to some of you:

Halloween Music

Can anyone recommend good books or videos or articles on the music theory of John Coltrane that goes a little beyond just “here’s how giant steps changes work” ?

Good question. Not me, sorry

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbj6bn6mZto

Been waiting for him to finish this book for years.

Was just working on BWV 38.6 with James Redd:
https://www.bach-chorales.com/BWV0038_6.htm
https://open.spotify.com/track/6tgIyDZKQ3i4G2kOMNR7Q2?si=I13lPCy_RgWqYfY9pn6MqQ
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Texts/Chorale085-Eng3.htm

It's probably the most dramatic example I've seen of a chorale where Bach has tried to graft a functional harmonization onto a modal hymn melody. The melody is very obviously in E Phrygian but Bach has harmonized it in A minor despite the fact that only the third phrase of the melody lends itself at all to a tonal centre on A. The hymn begins on a B and ends on an E. The first, second, and final (!) phrases all end with half cadences on E (V in A minor). The third is the only one that ends with an authentic cadence. The fourth modulates to G, which is obv the relative major of E minor but is an unusual key change for a piece that is otherwise in A minor. I'm not sure it even works completely but it is interesting that we get the only authentic cadence in the home key on "He alone is the good shepherd"; we also get an authentic cadence in G on "who can free Israel" but are denied resolution on "from all his sings".

*The third is the only one that ends with an authentic cadence in A minor.

The discussion of which also made me think of this quote for some reason: rolling enlightenment music discussion thread

Now I've got my kid's piano teacher involved in this.

WIkipedia agrees about the Phrygian nature of this section:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aus_tiefer_Not_schrei_ich_zu_dir,_BWV_38

But not this gentlemen:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1VFPJj-950