no boys allowed in the room!!!!

^ nice

estela

I'm just exhausted at this point, and completely sure I'm going to be banned within a space of days/weeks of the new FP rules coming in because ILX is a popularity contest and I always lose those. Do I:

a) just keep my head down and stick to snarking on this thread and only music-related ILM posts, growing ever more silently seething at not being able to contradict the usual hypocrisy when it inevitably pops up until I get disgusted with myself and ban ILX from my browser at a root level.

b) just accept my fate and go out in a blaze of glory, reviving every "electronic artist you would like to have in your... y'know" thread, and starting 8 billion ridiculous "musicians in capes" style threads and have as much fun as humanly possible until the inevitable happens.

I'm tired.

I've typed out the same post, for another thread, about 5 times now. But I know that the poster in question is both someone who does not take criticism well, and in addition has mod power that they have abused repeatedly and publicly to intimidate posters. I have had second thoughts, third thoughts, fourth thoughts - and yet, I know it's something that would create an even bigger clusterfuck.

I'm just going to say that I miss Kate Rushomancy, she's someone I genuinely like and respect - not despite but *because* we have been able to disagree quite seriously - and still go on interacting with one another respectfully. I miss her presence on the boards. But no one seems to GAF when women or trans people leave. It's always the ~edgey and provocative dudes~ whose presences are missed and absences mourned.

I'm tired. I want to listen to dumb 90s rave and mourn the times when ~conspiracy theories~ used to be fun things like crop circles and ~space aliens~ and mayan apocalypses. 100% politics with no relief and then interpersonal politice about the politics is just... I'm going to to and take my iron supplments and do something else.

You know, I have you blocked for very good reason and yet I will usually click to unblock posts itt because this thread is a favourite and we’ve previously engaged ok on here. So believe me, I didn’t click on yr posts expecting to say what I am now, wtf?

You think Kate left and it’s other people to blame? You at the very least had a part in it, if you think your posts to her were entirely innocent, then, what a joke. Honestly, the thing that happened on the trans thread was absolutely disgraceful, I don’t know why you expect to be able to speak to people like that and then pretend, weeks later, that nothing is amiss your side?

By the way, you are very much a poster that people step on eggshells around, and your endless posturing as some sort of iconoclast that’s ~unfairly~ maligned is neither correct nor appropriate.

And yeah I’ll probably get FPed to hell and back for this, but if it earns me a tempban, so be it.

Kate's last post:

Kate (rushomancy) wrote this on thread Democratic (Party) Direction on board I Love Everything on 21-Aug-2020

is it possible for you to make a point, or does your programming limit you to tiresome recitations of public information

― sound of scampo talk to me (El Tomboto)

ok, here's a point. your behavior, as a mod and a poster, has been chronically abusive to biden critics for fucking months now, and as much as i respect the other posters in the discussion here, i don't ever get the sense that that respect is reciprocated, and i don't feel safe being part of this board right now.

But why would you take *her* actual words and explanations as to her motives at face value, when you can just vent your own prejudices and beefs, and insert your opinions over the actual stated opinions and experiences of trans people.

I'm tired of the double standards and hypocrisy. I'm used to the misogyny from men - but it's the misogyny and tone-policing and pearl-clutching from women that I find the most hurtful.

Probably because the series of posts up to that one were a really unpleasant thread of you attacking her for what was definitely unintentional on her part, and then you think that had nothing to do with it? That you hadn’t just turned on her in what was supposed to be a safe space for trans people? Ok!

Like, if I have beef with someone back and forth for a while and then someone different is cunty to me in a different thread and I throw my hands up in disgust over ilx, the preceding haranguing had nothing to do with it? Ok. But look, you’ve made it perfectly clear that despite being quite a bit older than I am, you never learned the lesson of “if everyone you meet all day is an asshole...” and have no intention of self-reflection on your behaviour, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Look at that, I’m asking you questions, I thought you were in favour of that kind of thing.

It’s not your tone, it’s your content, but please by all means continue on as you are, it’s always notable how much you lean on misogyny even when a woman is telling you your behaviour is fucked.

I don't know where you get the idea that me disagreeing with Kate = my "attacking" her.

That my expressing, "hey, this style of conversation isn't really working for me, can we try a different style" is an attack.

That my expressing preferences or differences of opinion or experience in any way is... an attack.

You seem to be incapable of reading anything that comes out of my keyboard as anything except an attack - your interpretation of everything about me and my statements is overwhelmingly negative, in ways that you do not express such disapproval when cis men disagree or act in the exact same ways that I act. But *I'm* the real misogynist here. OK!

Like you think I didn't notice how you went straight to "WTF-ing" on the second thoughts thread the minute I revived an old thread talking about butts.

But Neanderthal revives an old thread talking about butts - not a peep out of you!

This is all very tumblr, which is bitterly funny for a number of reasons. You didn’t express it in a casual “hey, this way isn’t working for me” way now did you? Do you think your behaviour is unquestionable and you’re always right? Say so and I’ll write you off forever, because there’s no point in engaging with someone who’s that toxic combo of “always right” and “lacking in self awareness”.

And it’s rich as fuck to call me a misogynist, for the crime of disagreeing with you, when I’ve repeatedly spoken up about misogyny on ilx, which wasn’t exactly fun to do, but look, you’re not capable of looking at yourself honestly, you’re a long way from scoring a hit on me. Amazing how I can argue with male posters and that’s not anything but by disagreeing with you, a single person, I’m suddenly a misogynist.

Other people get to disagree, and have that viewed as normal discussion and debate and the exchange of viewpoints. But me disagreeing with people is an "attack".

But when it comes to trans issues, *I* am not considered to be an expert on trans issues, _even though I am trans_ - but you will accept literally any cis gay man as an expert on trans issues.

You are clearly deeply uncomfortable at my very existence, I am well aware that you don't like me, because you have not exactly been quiet about it. But you cast my existence as the problem, rather than your inability to live with difference, or to be around people you just don't *like*.

It might have been relevant had Neanderthal made that thread under his deadname, after previously posting about being upset about said deadname being used by other people not in reference to you.

You're a misogynist because you get all WTF at me, for THINGS THAT MEN DO WITHOUT A PEEP FROM you.

That is a double standard and that is deeply misogynist, yes.

And now you can't even seem to understand that a trans person coming to terms with stuff they posted under a deadname is NOT THE SAME AS cis people who deliberately invoke a deadname in order to hurt a trans person?

Are you really that incapable of understanding context?

Interesting interpretation of some of the posters as cis, but since when did knowing what you’re talking about ever stop you offering an opinion?

Nothing I say is ever going to change your mind about who or what I am. It is pointless to carry on this discussion.

Please put me back on killfile and I will do the same with you.

This is a total waste of time, as engaging with you always is. I can italicise so that it makes it very clear I’m referring to a specific context, but it doesn’t fit the argument you want to make, so in the bin it goes.

Look, continue on your merry way, this is really my own fault for innocently clicking to unblock your posts, thinking I’d see what you had to say (that’s my famous intolerance of difference again!), it’s clear you have no intention of reflecting on your behaviour or changing in any way, and it’s not worth talking to someone with less emotional intelligence than your average teenager.

Sorry to everyone else in the thread, I won’t bother posting here anymore.

Kate specifically said that she left ILX because of Tombot's moderation. You can believe trans women, or not.

But continuing to scream at a trans person for disagreeing with you, a cis woman, about what transphobia is and isn't, is *definitely* the way to fight transphobia on ILX, yes, 100%.

The only person screaming is you, and referring to “the board” in her comment implicated you, again, and I would argue more so, given that you went off on her in a thread that was supposed to be a safe place. I’d suggest you’re so stuck on this particular point because you don’t like having your behaviour challenged or questioned in any way, but that would be misogyny or something. You can try this all day with me, but someone who can’t reflect on their behaviour isn’t going to be remotely capable of an honest take on someone else’s. Sorry!

What happened between me and Kate on the trans thread, was a *mutual* disagreement, between two trans people – where we both decided to do the mature thing, and end the conversation respectfully, rather than continue to risk hurting each *other*. That *both* people in that conversation felt the conversation was becoming painful and decided to end it – but you only seem to care about the feelings of *one* of those parties?

Are you even aware of the level of blithe presumption, that you, a cis woman in a heterosexual relationship, are repeatedly lecturing an actual trans person on what was and wasn’t transphobic?

When you yourself display such ignorance that you cannot seem to tell the difference between "trans person trying to reconcile their own feelings about their recorded past under their deadname" with "deliberate deadnaming by a cis person".

(and if you want a specific example of the latter, go and read the full trans thread, and you will see D-40, swinging into a specifically trans thread to deliberately deadname one of the people that asked for the thread to be started. This has been going on a long time.)

If you were, actually, confused as to why I revived the thread, the appropriate thing to have done, would have been to say something like, "hey, Branwell, you’re normally pretty sensitive about your deadname – what’s with the revive?" You *didn’t* challenge me. You didn’t even question me. You don’t seem capable of treating me like a vulnerable human being with needs and sensitivities, you aren’t capable of treating me like a rational actor with motives you haven’t grasped – you treat me like an unexploded bomb, because *you* are too frightened or threatened or just plain unable to handle the fact that you just ~just don’t like me~ to ask that direct question, instead of reacting with "WTF" and passive-aggressively sniping and directing others to go to the poll to lower the FP margin. Instead of stopping to ask "what *is* happening here?" you have already pre-decided the worst possible interpretation, and that it needs to be punished - but it's me who can't handle conflict? Really?

If you have already decided that I’m a monster, then everything I do will seem monstrous to you. That does not make me a monster. And I’m not interested in proving my humanity again and again to someone so determined to monster me. Now good day to you.

Sorry, how was I directing others to the poll? That’s conspiratorial thinking. Don’t bother answering that, because I would really prefer you not reply to me ever again.

You seem to disregard, once again, the fact that I am not referring to deadnaming, either by people past or present, but a separate incident where the name in question was used by someone else. Deliberate deadnaming is disgraceful, imo, and I will never defend it.

I thought you were going to killfile me, but you determined to have the last word, so here’s mine: you’ve finally posted something I agree with you on, about treating you like an unexploded bomb - which actually I said upthread already. Except it’s not just me, is it? Don’t you notice how people don’t engage with you much, or how they just don’t get into it as much? That’s on you and how you interact with people, even people who agree with you a lot. But again, I sense I’m wasting my time typing this.

Oh and anyone who is reading this and who disagrees with this characterisation? If you are walking on eggshells around someone constantly, that’s implicitly saying that their feelings matter more. Whether you intend to or not, that’s the effect. How that factors into a healthy forum, well.

I don't want to sound like Tiny Tim but I value every person's POV on this thread, Branwell included. I generally find it hard to keep up with who's said what to whom on other threads so apologise if I'm missing egregious behaviour; sometimes I need things spelt out. I wish, in general, disagreement didn't have to be seen as attack - I think that would be the main thing keeping me from posting stuff, it's easier to just not say anything if I disagree with sth but I do still have this idea, accurate or not, of ILX being a place where posts can be taken at face value rather than 'oh so you think...'-type inferences (and I am not aiming this at anything in particular posted here recently!) running off on a tangent so the original post is forgotten (as I have noticed on other online communities).

I have times when I happy to butt heads with others (haha butt heads) and times when I can't be bothered, or more likely feel I don't have the full picture so best to watch and learn.

But no one seems to GAF when women or trans people leave.

What? I can think of several specific women mentioned when discussions of posters people miss happen.

If you are walking on eggshells around someone constantly, that’s implicitly saying that their feelings matter more. Whether you intend to or not, that’s the effect. How that factors into a healthy forum, well.

it is and it isn't? Like, that is one of the things that people (mostly cis-white-men) complain about with cancel culture and "the new politeness" ... that they can't just be themselves and make the jokes they were used to making, that they now have to walk on eggshells and constantly police themselves in case someone gets offended. Considering you, gyac, seem very concerned about social justice and trans rights, I doubt you want to be on the same side as the dudes who resent the fact they can't make rape jokes anymore (e.g. what's going on in the gawker thread) without being attacked?

The way I try to think about it and act on it (not that I'm by any means a paragon) is that everyone's feelings matter and that some people have greater sensitivities and care more about different things. Like as if I'm hosting a party or something ... I want everyone to be able to enjoy themselves. Granted, that doesn't always happen, and people will rub each other the wrong way, and some people are just having a bad day or week or something ... idk, maybe this is a dumb analogy .. but I want to try to make it possible for everyone to be able to have a good time at the party and feel respected.

I doubt you want to be on the same side as the dudes who resent the fact they can't make rape jokes anymore (e.g. what's going on in the gawker thread) without being attacked?

She's not! And I find it odd that you would think they are the same. I'm just thinking about my own experiences in my life with people who are volatile, and it's nothing like being unable to make offensive jokes.

I think the issue is what that volatility looks like and where it comes from? I just felt super uncomfortable with the generalization that she was making! And I'm glad that someone called me on my generalization tbh, because I thought about breaking it down in a more differentiated way. ... Like yeah, there are people who are super volatile and that translates into abusive behavior.

And the issue is -- how do you deal with that if you have compassion for the person but you are tired of being on the receiving end of abuse? ... I think about the abusive people I've known. And most of them have suffered some major trauma in their lives.

My point with the "eggshells" response, is that there are people who you do feel like you have to walk on eggshells around, because they have suffered trauma, and it's a compassionate, thoughtful way to behave. In a lot of cases, the sensitivity required doesn't make the person requiring it a monster.

And I am not dismissing the feelings of resentment ... there is naturally, I think, a sense of things not being fair, that you have to figure out how to handle individually. It just ... depends ... and obviously ilx is just a message board, and we don't have the same obligations to one another as one would to friends or comrades or family (however you define it). I think the one rule is "don't be a dick," and I'm just saying, let's think about how best not to be dicks.

I know I've posted about this a lot over the past few years, but, almost 4 years ago, 36 people died in a fire at an underground show in my city, i was friends with a half dozen of the deceased. It was a super traumatic event for so many people I knew. And because thousands of people were affected, invariably, people responded differently to that trauma. And there were definitely really intense arguments related to people not being sensitive enough, etc. Thousands of people walking on eggshells around each other for ... a long time. And I have a dark sense of humor. My tendencies, in situations like that, are to make jokes to be able to deal with the horror and trauma and absurdity of it all, as well as to try to take productive action to fix things. And here was a situation where I had to be very very cautious about my sense of humor. Early on, I was talking with a friend of mine, who has similar coping mechanisms, and we came up with the shorthand "<3 and :(" (heart and sad) ... like this is a time where the way to be good people and compassionate -- publicly -- is to confine ourselves to "<3" and ":(" out of sensitivity to the way others process trauma.

I’ll say this only once: I blocked you a good while back, sarahell, and your last two posts have just reminded me why that was a good decision. Please don’t reply to me again, I don’t want to click to read one of your posts, and I am only doing so because tokyo rosemary was kind enough to defend me against that, frankly, absurd, inane and insulting accusation. GUBU, as we might put it at home.

It’s interesting that you think sticking your neck out for someone who’ll never do the same back for you and lecturing us about being kind - as though none of us have trauma, our own stuff going on, as though it is the job of the mods to take this kind of responsibility for another person when they are neither paid nor qualified to do so. A person being hurt didn’t give them carte blanche for bad behaviour.

In my case, my phrasing of the eggshells example was directly thinking of my own childhood, which was abusive at times, where it has taken me almost my whole life to start processing what had happened and get past it in some way. I actually feel disgusted at myself for posting this, but what can I say, I’m really sick of being talked at/past by people who have no idea who they’re talking to or about, or the kind of red flags their behaviour might raise.

Anyway, as I said, I’ve had you blocked for some months now, please respect that and don’t contact me again.

I'm sorry you had an abusive childhood -- and I'm not actually "contacting" you -- like do you have some settings where you get notifications when you are mentioned in a thread? Like, idk, you are doing this thing that seems super passive-aggressive where you attack people, like super scathing over-the-top attacks, and then say, "how dare you respond?!" ...

Like:

A person being hurt didn’t give them carte blanche for bad behaviour.

seriously, this is you right now.

And really -- I don't mean those posts as "lectures" -- maybe they are lectures to my past self -- obviously we are all adults (with the exception of pestosock69420) and have different experiences and are thus gonna perceive things differently and respond differently ... like if there are dynamics here that are triggering you, gyac, I respect that. ... It totally seems like that's what's going on considering your vehemence about stuff that seems ... idk easier to shrug off for some people.

sarahell, i don't think i knew about the fire. that's horrific.

anyway -- re-reading what I wrote, I probably did come off as condescending and prescriptive and I apologize.

kinder - thanks for that. Yeah ... it was. It made me rethink a lot of things about how I wanted to be, what I wanted to do with my life, who I wanted to spend time with, etc.

I have not slept well in a couple of days, but I am going to try to say this with as much compassion as I can.

gyac, I am sorry you had an abusive childhood. I am sorry you went through those things, and I am sorry they have shaped your reactions the way they have, and that you experience the responses you do.

At the same time, I am not your mother. I am not responsible for what you experienced. I am not responsible for things that you project onto me, because of your childhood abuse. If your childhood experiences are affecting you to the point where you are projecting them onto random internet strangers, again, I say this with compassion: please address these things in therapy. This shit is hurting yourself. (It is also hurting me.) This is, as Sarahell very wisely observes, perpetuating abuse rather than dealing with it.

In the past, I experienced bullying and targeted harassment - on ILX and other spaces - so bad that it left me with mild PTSD. Through seeking therapy, I have learned to manage my own triggers better, and I am far, far less reactive than I used to be. (And multiple people on ILX have reached out to me off-board, to say that they have noticed the change, so this is not just me tooting my own horn.) I've learned to be more open about what my triggers are, and recognise which ones are my responsibility to handle, and which ones it is valid and reasonable to ask others to negotiate.

Things it is completely reasonable to ask: "stop making rape jokes"; "don't misgender me"; "stop using these slurs, and avoid these tropes". It is NOT reasonable to ask another person to never disagree with anyone else ever again, because *you* are uncomfortable handling other people's conflict.

Do you know *why* ILX doesn't tolerate rape jokes any more? It's not because everyone collectively sat down 12 years ago and politely decided they weren't very nice, so everyone will just stop. It's because several people on this thread, myself included (my memory of people's previous screen names is not good, I definitely remember In Orbit, Roxymuzak, and several others - forgive for not namechecking evereyone - and a couple of dudes who were mostly survivors) stopped asking nicely, and started LOSING OUR SHIT very loudly when people made rape jokes, playing good-cop-bad-cop, having very public disagreements and yes, clusterfucks, and pushed things to the point where it was actually less hassle for moderators to step in and intervene and actively STOP posters from going around with screen names like "no means yes, yes means anal" (who else remembers that incident? anyone?) than to allow it to continue.

That process of "losing our shit" cost me a huge toll on my mental health, which was a thing I had to address in therapy, but it did work. ILX does, NOW, have way, way less rape jokes than the rest of the internet. If people feel they have to ~walk on eggshells~ around me, rather than risk making rape jokes - I'm fine with that. I feel that was a price worth paying.

Sometimes it is necessary to stop asking nicely. Sometimes it is necessary to disagree. Sometimes it is necessary to demand, without apology. Sometimes it is necessary to go through conflict. Without disagreement - growth, change, growing stronger, growing more flexible - none of these things happen.

I fully admit that my greatest flaw is that I am so used to thinking against the grain, that sometimes I get stuck in disagreement-mode. I'm autistic, changing gears is very difficult for me. It is a thing I am working on. I've tried to be honest about what works for me, and what exacerbates situations. I've tried to get better at "this is what I think is happening here, what do you think is happening here" conversations, but I am never going to stop being autistic. If someone cannot look at me doing that, and see "this is a confused autistic person, trying to work through a disagreement" but can only see "this is an unexploded bomb" - the problem is not me or my autism or my opinions or my tone. I cannot defuse bombs that exist in other people's minds.

No, your greatest flaw would be projecting your own issues onto other people and then loftily talking like you don’t do this exact thing all the time, over years and years and years. You think that you can act as though you please and nobody may say anything to you about it because they’ll get this torrent of irrelevant words, but I’m sick of it, and not a single word you’ve said to me has changed my mind or made me think I was wrong to say what I did. Not one!

Neither of you know what you’re talking about, but my God do you like to act like you do, and it’s, frankly, embarrassing for someone who is so blind to their own faults to lecture while ignoring the mote in their own eye.

Killfile me, please. I am not planning to interact with you, but if you are going to write this nonsense then you’re not going to leave it there as though it’s right. I really don’t need to read you bringing up grudges you’ve held from 12 years ago or whatever, because you think that that is important or it matters at all. Nor have you once answered the questions I’ve asked you. Don’t take that as an invitation to respond to me, by the way, because you haven’t done so previously.

Oh and really - since you leaned on the lurkers supporting you in email, I’ll do it too- numerous people have reached out to me over the posts I’ve made to thank me, which, idk, suggests strongly to me that it’s actually not all in my head (nice gaslighting from you both on that, btw)! The point I made in bringing that up to sarahell was that other people have experienced abuse, and that I know the pattern when I see it. I didn’t bring it up for either of you to condescend to me like you care about hurting people on ilx - if you did, one of you wouldn’t behave as you do and the other wouldn’t follow you around enabling it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Tl;dr - leave me alone, stop pretending you’re some sage or speaking from authority on anything let alone me, leave other people alone.

"Neither of you know what you're talking about" is a fairly patronising thing to keep repeating even if those people weren't talking about their own PTSD and tragedies. Is this specific to particular statements, as I'm unclear on what the actual source of disagreement is, other than Kate's reasons for leaving/hiatus from ILX?

I can't see you addressing a question to sarahell, and to Branwell you asked a question and immediately followed it with 'don't bother answering' and the others appeared to be rhetorical, at least in the last couple of days. I'm not saying this as an attack, I don't think I have any history with you gyac but this is me taking posts at face value and trying to figure out how we can keep this thread going with fewer misunderstandings or perceived attacks.

It is interesting how you say “I’m not saying this as an attack”, but yet gloss over the rest of the things that were said, as though it would ever be acceptable to infer someone was making stuff up because of past experiences they’d shared. Only regret I have here is sharing that because of the obtuseness, but look kinder, if that’s the behaviour you think is most objectionable, then I don’t think we have much to say to each other.

Look, I'm just lost now. Who has inferred that someone was making stuff up?

The thing that I was qualifying as 'not an attack' was my pointing out that you had said 'nor have you once answered the questions I've asked you' but that I could see as an observer that any questions were not posed particularly clearly as inviting a response. The 'not an attack' was specific to that, as in, I'm not trying to get at you but to suggest that not answering the questions was not a pointed attack but more likely a difference in how the posts were read.

I mean the rest of it isn't an attack either but I'm not intentionally 'glossing over' things, it's more that this single, minor point I have tried to make was misinterpreted - I accept blame here as I must not be communicating in the clearest way - and has to prompt posts like this, so addressing further points would take up more time than I have, and I think I'll leave it there. My post was also intended as the start of a conversation, awaiting your response, not a summary essay on which behaviour was or wasn't objectionable.

Sarahell, I do remember the fire, and I do remember you talking about it on ILX, with both a huge amount of emotional rawness and also great sensitivity and insightfulness and emotional intelligence.

I am sorry that you lost your friends, in such a tragic and horrifying way. But I also think the way that you describe being able to use that traumatic experience to redress and change things in your own life, and your own actions and interactions, is really moving, and I can only aspire to that level of emotional integrity. I really respect you for that.

suggests strongly to me that it’s actually not all in my head (nice gaslighting from you both on that, btw)! The point I made in bringing that up to sarahell was that other people have experienced abuse, and that I know the pattern when I see it.

I am so sorry that you interpreted what I said that way -- I actually meant the opposite. Like, you, because of your experience, are seeing red flags and patterns that are real, that do exist ... and I don't see them or maybe I just don't see them as threatening, not because I am right and you are wrong, or that I am omniscient (even though I know I can come across as condescending to you) ... but because I am not attuned to those threats and patterns the way you are, because I had the privilege growing up of being able to ignore that.

xp Branwell -- thanks, that is very kind of you to say!

::does quick incense burning cleansing ritual to clear out residual bad vibes::

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/q9EwYh7J4TOP71FvCjTCLk8mrZcIDgm0ODvOAGV_FQ6cplfS3rgfIswr2OZ-PVPOgfVj0RhFnIAEEx76uSYHg17OqP2pWkafaaEFVryiU3YgOU6zkQQP

Non-Boys, I want to talk to you about a touchy subject - COMPLAINT

Do you feel that you are / aren't allowed to complain about things? Do you feel that your complaints will be resolved, or that there would be consequences for *you* if you complain?

The thing that brings this up is something rather silly, just a poor experience on AirBNB, but... still felt salient.

So I had to leave a 'negative' review on an AirBNB. There were multiple small, but significant things wrong with the flat, e.g. amenities that the flat was listed as having, but which were either not present or not working when I got there. (Wifi didn't work; washing machine was broken; the listing said there was a hair dryer when there wasn't!) To the point where it did impact my stay. So I felt it was fair to flag up these inaccuracies to other people who might stay there in the future. But as I wrote my review, I felt racked with guilt, like, was it fair for me to complain, the host was clearly doing the best he could, etc. etc. and that it was *mean* to point out the inaccuracies. So I ended up leaving a review that really accentuated and raved about the good things (the view was amazing!) but then pointed out only one of the things that wasn't working, but followed it up quickly with a compliment to the host to make sure my complaint wasn't seen as *personal*.

When I went back to the listing, I saw that the man who had stayed there before me had left an excoriating review, pointing out other failures that I hadn't noticed, and condeming the host as rude and unhelpful.

And there was a part of me that just went o_0 because ... you know, it feels like there really is such a double standard around complaint? That if I complain, I will be seen as an overly demanding 'Karen', that my complaint will be seen as a personal attack as me being mean or personally offensive to the person complained about - that the complaint will reflect badly on *me*, that my AirBNB guest rating will go down if I am honest about a negative experience? But then I see cis men complaining without a second thought, their complaints are taken seriously and viewed as honest reflections of poor experiences.

Does anyone else experience this weird thing around complaining?

oh definitely! I am also wary of complaining because not only am I a woman, I'm a white woman, a middle-aged white woman ... like I definitely suffer from Karenfear (I bet this could be translated into a word in German lol).

I think there are different types of complaint scenarios though -- there are private complaints, and then those like the AirBnB one you talk about, where your complaints are public.

The latter type is where I am most wary like you were, because there are multiple factors at play, as you mention, right? There's the potential for unfair things to happen to other people as a result of your complaint, and then there's potential for bad things to happen to _you_ as a result of your complaint. And because of the public nature of it, you have next to no control over the responses to your complaint. You can easily imagine the worst responses, right, and then you think, "Is it worth it? Just to let people know these things?"

maybe that's just me idk

It's complicated, with algorithmic ratings, like I will *never* give someone a less than 100% review if I think it is going to affect their job or their livelihood? Because of exactly that - too high a potential for unfair things to happen to other people! (I don't know where AirBNB hosts sit in that livelihood-at-stake stakes?)

But with public complaints - it can be so fraught! Like, you have to do that cost-benefit analysis, of 'is the potential blowback to me going to be worth either trying to get this put right or warning someone else what to expect'? It both amazes and astonishes me that there really are people for whom such a public complaint is ~no big deal~ - did he not anticipate blowback, or did he just not care? So I don't think it's just you, but I do wonder how gendered this is. Like, I notice often in public, the way women in particular seem to have to apologise three times in order to express an opinion, especially a differing opinion. That to express not just a differing, but a negative, or critical or complaining opinion, in public? To internalise anticipated or potential bad things to the point of... sometimes it is not worth the bother, even potential bother, of speaking up and making the complaint. Is this a *thing*, and what is it doing?

I definitely am less sensitive about doing this when the criticism or complaint is directed to a cis white male. Like, I think about the punching-up/punching-down aspect of it.

Not to over-inspect the mechanisms of making complaints in various frameworks, online, etc, but really if something isn't right or doesn't suit you or doesn't work, isn't the first thing to ask for it to be fixed? Like before it's too late to get the item or service or fulfill the function of whatever it is? Problem solving is not complaining imo but in order to be genuine you do have to come from the problem-solving mindset and not, like, a fault-finding one. But assuming you do that, and you just want the transaction to work properly for everyone's benefit, is that "complaining"?

Things should work the way they say on the box. If they don't, they should be fixed, or an effort or accommodation should be made, anyway. If that is rejected or not in good faith, then it's time for a complaint, surely?

The gendered stuff obviously exists, and sucks, and is not helpful for being in the world. :(

Frankly if an Air bnb is being advertised as having things it doesn't have, that's fraud. If the owner knew a thing was broken, they needed to tell you before-hand and if it was a major problem, offer you a discount or refund or whatever.

Otoh when it's, like, a survey from a call center about whether their employee was helpful enough, the only moral thing to do is give them the highest score because that's a shitty, punitive system that penalizes people for not meeting impossible standards.