Whose opinions do you trust the most: Music buying public or Music Critics?

It's been a while since I felt caught out by something being really popular that it turns out I also like when I finally hear it.

Good morning! What're y'all on about?

I dunno, I've lost track.

Whether Ned can be trusted. (I'm not so sure myself.)

Tim F otm.

Whether Ned can be trusted. (I'm not so sure myself.)

― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r),

that can be the follow up poll

Where is the Ned
And can he be trusted
Searching for lilac in neckware
And sweet haberdashery

great I've killed another thread

Truly this is all a subject for contemplation.

this one needs killing tbf, sorry neechy lol

At least we flushed Ned out of his hidey-hole before the ceremonial sacrifice.

The Wicker Ned.

Ahem, sorry. In any case, as has been stated upthread, the original post is a Classic - or Dud! - false binary/false dichotomy, which was settled long ago by dueling binaural microphones in the hands of Lou Reed and Lester Bangs.

i can't listen to an album until I already know exactly how I'm supposed to feel about it the moment I put it on

― Neanderthal, Wednesday, September 2, 2020 4:25 PM

sorry to pop back in without reading anything else, but the satire of this comment is so spot-on. this is exactly how it feels sometimes and i hate it. it's exactly why i'm usually more critical of the criticism than i am the actual music.

anyway. as you were.

I found myself more susceptible to it with pop or hip-hop music, where by posting here or reading the internet, I was bound to read or hear someone's take on it, and then I'm often unwittingly listening for what the author told me to listen for rather than going in expectation-free. or it discouraged me from 'wasting' 75 minutes listening to an album that maybe I actually find out later that I liked.

I do love that metal kind of affords that freedom because yeah, we have 'metal press', but outside of Decibel and a few big blogs, people pay it less mind. PItchfork's metal reviews I barely read because I find I never agree with them, even though I think that Grayson chap was doing a good job with the ones he wrote.

Tbf, Neechy, the OP does seem like it could use clarification, esp regarding what you mean by "trust" - do you just mean "whose recommendations are you most likely to seek out?" Or something broader, like "how should greatness be judged - would the canon be better if it were based on sales certifications or Acclaimed Music rankings?" Are we meant to consider the public as a whole vs critical consensus in the aggregate? Or is this more about individual critics or members of the public?

My favorite pop track of the year (so far) "peaked at number 30 on the US Billboard Hot 100 (and) was ranked as the 12th best song of 2020 by Billboard"... not sure my particular tastes are too closely aligned with either critics or the public.

(OTOH, my favorite pop artist - Ariana - is both commercially successful and (largely) critically acclaimed, so I can't really complain on either score.)

the OP does seem like it could use clarification, esp regarding what you mean by "trust" - do you just mean "whose recommendations are you most likely to seek out?" Or something broader, like "how should greatness be judged - would the canon be better if it were based on sales certifications or Acclaimed Music rankings?" Are we meant to consider the public as a whole vs critical consensus in the aggregate? Or is this more about individual critics or members of the public?

Doesn't really matter how one frames the question as ILM posters, can and will, will interpret it whatever way they want to anyway!

im more interested in the written answer than the result of the poll. That's just to tie it all up at the end of discussion really.

But I do want to hear the opinions of actual poptimist critics on whether they are a better authority on pop music than the general public inc kids who buy it

Or was poptimism just about changing music criticism from rock to pop music instead? (which I'm sure wasn't the original intention)

Doesn't really matter how one frames the question as ILM posters, can and will, will interpret it whatever way they want to anyway!

You must have had something in mind, though?

Embracing one's own death as an author is an interesting approach, though.

would like to contribute a bit more here, unfortunately am busy over mumsnet telling them their opinions on parenting are a load of rubbish

Not everyone on ILM is or ever has been a music writer

That is certainly true. I myself, for example, although I did make some comedy answering machine messages back in the day before Biz began.

well I myself sold 5 or 6 fanzines in the 90s, so who am i to judge anyway

i think a much more accurate model rn is something like "algorithmic worlds", like "facebook alternative reality conservative users" vs "npr people" where a bunch of content all linked together forms one digital tribe or another.

Pop loving music writers

if more of these so-called critics would acknowledge the importance of whatever it is i give a shit about then there'd be no need for this question

Ok Brendan

Neither
Only the ilx hivemind is worthy of trust

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrS5HwjbsBM

At this point, I pretty much only trust algorithms. I've been training Spotify Hipster Boyfriend so long, and so hard, as to what I actually *like*, that he does get his 'made for you' and 'release radar' playlists pretty spot on, usually at least 50% stuff I am genuinely interested in.

I do sometimes enjoy reading the work of music critics, but for the most part, even if I find one who is fairly good at descriptive criticism (capturing *why* something is good, what fans use the music *for*, that sort of thing) I find them wholly useless at predictive criticism. I cannot remember the last time I read a professional critic who was as consistently good at spotting things I'd actually enjoy.

Even on ILX, I don't know that there was ever a specific user whose tastes aligned with mine - but more like, if there were specific clusters of users, that if they all agreed on an artist, then I was far more likely to check that artist out. (Granted, this was, like, a decade ago, and parts of the clusters have now gone.)

I don't think there *is* a general ILM hive mind; it is very balkanised now, more than it has ever been in my 2-decade experience of ILM and there are probably now distinct but different clusters whose predictive criticism might be good for their specialised corner. (The year-end polls used to be fantastic at winkling out both excellent tracks, and who comprised the reliable clusters - but they have been slipping in recent times.)

The fantastic thing I have found with Spotify Hipster Boyfriend, is that the algorithms genuinely *are* trainable, that there is a way to say "never play me this again" or "always show me stuff like this" - and that the algorithm's ego doesn't get in the way.

Many times, I have had experiences with people who have thought of themselves as ~enthusiastic music sharers~ who just wanted to turn all their friends on to new stuff. But my overwhelming experience with these guys was that it was almost always about sharing *their* taste in music, and almost never about actually paying attention to what *you* liked or looked for in music.

After multiple experiences, with different people in different spaces (yes, including ILM) - where someone would constantly push new music on me, and it was often done in a superficially friendly and excited way, you know "aw, check this out!" and "this is amazing, you gotta hear it!" - but there was a point where it wasn't reciprocal. And if it would reach a point where my preferences were not respected - if I would flat out say, "I really don't like Genre X" or "please, no more of Y, it's just not for Branwells" and they would protest "ah, you're just ~prejudiced against metal~!!!" or whatever, and try to push past my preferences, that really did not bode well for music *sharing*.

Especially if, when I tried to share stuff that I was really digging, be it girl groups or electro-pop or whatever, I would just meet a blank wall of "I just don't like that stuff." Like - OK, you're allowed to have preferences, and "just not like" entire genres, but I'm not? In that case, I am no longer taking reccommendations from you. Through therapy, I've learned that that kind of "my preferences count; yours don't" behaviour doesn't bode well for friendships in general.

But in terms of deciding whose opinions to trust on music, it's a real deciding factor.

(So voted "general public" because that is more algorithmic, as algorithms are ~made by people~)

that there is a way to say "never play me this again"

How I wish I could do that on Spotify. I keep getting recommendations for artists I don't like.

A simple click on a 'please dont recommend this artist or album again' button would be amazing.

Huh, that's weird. I know there used to be such a button, because I have definitely noped out on several artists.

But now I go into the app to look for it, I can't seem to find it? Man, that would suck if they took that facility away, because it was so incredibly useful.

(e.g. I love Neubauten, but I never ever want to hear anything by Kick Knave, at all, ever, and I managed to successfully banish him from Spotify.)

Ah, it looks like they've changed it. There is now a "verboten" symbol to the right of the album name in radio stations, but it only bans the specific song, rather than the entire artist.

Is that the phone app or desktop? I only ever use the desktop app (windows) and was unaware of any features like that.

Just checked the desktop app and looked at my discover weekly. There is indeed an icon there beside each song and if i click on it,then it gives me 2 options
I dont like this song
I dont like *insert band name*

Cheers! I had no idea

I do think 'Toxic' is fine for what it is

Agree with "fine for what it is" but the Bollywood quote is the most interesting thing about it imo.

tbh I wasn't expecting a re-run of the 99/00 Britney wars when I started this poll.

Also, I think Toxic is the best Britney single imo.

I asked you what you were expecting!

Also, this isn't war.

Honestly, neither is of much significance to me. People sharing music they dig, word of mouth, record shops/record shop owners and employees I trust, all have mattered a lot more to me than criticism per se or sales.

I mean, I don't think Britney is off-topic in a thread on "Pop loving music buying public vs Music writers" where you "want to hear the opinions of actual poptimist critics on whether they are a better authority on pop music than the general public inc kids who buy it", considering she was the core pop figure at the inception of poptimism.

Can't remember the last time I read a piece of music criticism, so I guess the public by default but some combo of artists sharing artists, friends, ILM threads, etc..

Reviews the length of pitchfork reviews et al are way too long for me. I guess some people enjoy reading them as an artform. Give me a quick blurb instead. Otherwise I feel like I'm reading someone's LiveJournal or academic essay.

I don't see a meaningful difference between what is v popular and critically acclaimed pop.

Look at end of year track lists across the last decade. 'Get Lucky', 'Blurred Lines', 'Trap Queen', 'Work, 'Old Town Road', 'Bad Guy' - big hits, list-toppers (even if some fell out of favour since).

Plenty of examples where most critics and most fans align on what is the best pop, even if other mega-streamed acts are ignored or dismissed by most critics.

I thought blurred lines was reviled from the off?