Whose opinions do you trust the most: Music buying public or Music Critics?

https://i.gr-assets.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/books/1327213646l/8668908.jpg

Pop critics fete Carly Rae Jepsen and Charli XCX albums while the world is listening to Drake, Post Malone, and Ed Sheeran.

Who is the best judge of what the best pop is? is it the pop buying public?

the best pop is by the Pope

I'll take CRJ and Charli XCX over the other doofuses so it's a clear-cut choice for me in this instance, even though, to echo Sund4r, I'd also be on the losing end.

Post Malone's Nirvana covers were pretty good.

ilx poptimism def always preferred pop that wasn't that popular

Charli XCX is our queen

Britney was the one shining moment where the two converged, like two carts of manure colliding in the night.xp

Anyone with an opinion is essentially a critic - either can be insightful or ignorant but at least professional critics are obligated to hear virtually everything and know something about what they're talking about.

Britney was the one shining moment where the two converged, like two carts of manure colliding in the night.

Beautiful. I salute you.

I do think 'Toxic' is fine for what it is, but the rest of her music has always sounded like this to me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jM8XdUNhNmU

Scratch that, this is in fact the best conceivable 'Toxic' cover of all.

oh shit is that the new iwrestledabearonce?

Pop critics fete Carly Rae Jepsen and Charli XCX albums while the world is listening to Drake, Post Malone, and Ed Sheeran.

name them

boy after the way this year's gone, i can't trust anybody.

anymore it's just friends, you guys here, and. . . that's it, honestly.

the music buying public for me means people's real connection to music, not as filtered through adverts, lifestyle journalism, etc. but as something that genuinely gives them joy. As far as opinions go, that's the only standard you can trust. I don't look to music critics for their superior opinions, just good writing.

name them

Name whom? Critics who praise Carly Rae Jepsen? She had the #3 album in the 2015 Pazz & Jop critics' poll. You can see a list of critics who voted for it halfway down this page: http://furia.com/pjs/artist_8041.html

These are some publications that ranked it among the best of that year: https://www.yearendlists.com/albums/e-mo-tion-bfe6088b-f7c7-4ee8-8e75-d8e5084fed45

Or did you mean more recently? Here are some critical rankings for Dedicated from 2019: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dedicated_(Carly_Rae_Jepsen_album)#Critical_reception

name everyone in the world

I don't trust either of their opinions. But my tastes are more in line with critics than the public at large, so I'm more apt to check out something that is getting critical buzz than something tearing up the charts.

you don't really have to trust critics now, if you read a review and it sounds kinda cool you can check it out instantly and decide for yourself

i can't listen to an album until I already know exactly how I'm supposed to feel about it the moment I put it on

Its all about sharing the cultural moment innit

Right, exactly ums. If a critic's description intrigues me I give it a quick listen. Same thing with popular stuff, really, tho usually I'm not motivated to give anything a listen til critics are fawning over it.

https://i.imgur.com/alN1kkK.jpg

250 Coastal Elite Media People/Carly Rae Jepsen Fans Can Be Wrong

Name whom? Critics who praise Carly Rae Jepsen? She had the #3 album in the 2015 Pazz & Jop critics' poll. You can see a list of critics who voted for it halfway down this page: http://furia.com/pjs/artist_8041.html

Stephen Bush also has Post Malone on his ballot.

Alex Ostroff also has Drake on his ballot.

Laur Jackson also had Drake on that ballot, and here she is going long on him:
https://www.theawl.com/2016/01/drakes-playground/

Renato Pagnani had Drake on his ballot twice, and had earlier named him as his #1 of 2013:
https://pitchfork.com/thepitch/192-my-year-in-music-renato-pagnani/

I bet clicking on some more would further dispel the alleged division, but I'm going to scrub a bathtub.

Idk what point you're making? Seems pretty empirically evident that there are critically celebrated 'pop' artists whose actual popularity is dwarfed by that of other artists who receive a lower level of critical acclaim. Pointing out that there are individual critics who rate both doesn't really disprove that.

I mean, yeah, this does suggest less acclaim: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beerbongs_%26_Bentleys#Critical_reception . The album didn't even make P&J, nor did the hit single "Rockstar".

Critics who fete modern symphonic composers or avant-garde and noise artists probably aren't praising Ed Sheeran and Post Malone either, but starting a thread to say so wouldn't tell us anything about any of the musicians in questions, or their work

but they’re... comparing pop artists to pop artists, and their respective critical reception

Does anyone here listen to Carly Rae Jepsen regularly because of her sustained critical praise, or eschew Post Malone because of his lack of same, or listen extensively to Drake despite disliking his music because of their inherent trust in the wisdom of crowds?

uh, musicians who make music i like and to an extent, professional record collectors.

i only trust tim gane, basically.

250 Coastal Elite Media People/Carly Rae Jepsen Fans Can Be Wrong

― Thoia Thoing, Maryland (Whiney G. Weingarten), Wednesday, September 2, 2020 5:11 PM (two hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

new board description?

I fully trust my wonderful judgment.

Does anyone here listen to Carly Rae Jepsen regularly because of her sustained critical praise, or eschew Post Malone because of his lack of same, or listen extensively to Drake despite disliking his music because of their inherent trust in the wisdom of crowds?

I dunno? But the point that some pop artists are more critically praised than they are commercially successful, and vice-versa for others, seems fairly sound.

Most critics are too narrowly interested in music that is "good" to the exclusion of music that is not "good" but is rewarding or interesting in some other way to be of any use to me.

I fully trust my wonderful judgment.

I, too, trust your judgment, Ned.

I trust pomenitul's judgment of Ned

I dunno? But the point that some pop artists are more critically praised than they are commercially successful, and vice-versa for others, seems fairly sound.

truly, an oddity specific to pop music only, and not to any other forms of music, writing, art, performance, cuisine or athletic performance

So you’ve shifted from arguing that the phenomenon doesn’t exist to that it’s universal? lol

Fashion shoots with Beck and Hanson
Courtney Love, and Marilyn Manson
You're all fakes
Run to your mansions
Come around
We'll kick your ass in

So back to the Motor-League with me
before I’m forced to face the wrath of a well-heeled buying public
who live vicariously through
tortured-artist college-rock and floor-punching macho pabulum

So you’ve shifted from arguing that the phenomenon doesn’t exist to that it’s universal? lol

I just asked Kerr who he was talking about ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

the music buying public for me means people's real connection to music, not as filtered through adverts, lifestyle journalism, etc. but as something that genuinely gives them joy. As far as opinions go, that's the only standard you can trust. I don't look to music critics for their superior opinions, just good writing.

― Anti-Cop Ponceortium (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Wednesday, 2 September 2020 23:11 (yesterday) link

The first sentence of this post strikes me as a false dichotomy. All enjoyment is filtered. Just because "the music buying public" don't necessarily appreciate the processes that result in them stumbling upon the the music that "genuinely gives them joy", or which have shaped their taste such that they're in a position to experience "genuine" joy from that particular music, doesn't make their taste less mediated.

Or in other words:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yj8mHwvFxMc

Never trust anyone least of all yourself

i would never trust any musician who would allow me to listen to their music

How much is left of the "music buying public", in this era of streaming?

Who Do I Trust? Me. That's Who.

Tim F - Yes, of course I appreciate that much of people's experience is mediated in some way. The video you've chosen is an interesting example, though - as someone who has no stake in fashion I would be tempted of course to take the "expert" opinion over the amateur, and seeing the processes and history behind what looks like an unimportant aesthetic choice is interesting - however, I do not believe that makes her opinion *better* or more trustworthy. Better at surviving in the commercial world of fashion, yes of course, but not in terms of actual enjoyment of clothes.

We aren't talking about the public en masse, judging by chart placings or youtube streams or whatever - those are so muddied by external factors as to make them useless, that should be clear to anyone. But if a critic's job is to "rate" music, give it a score, judge its worthiness or whatever (I do not think this should be their job, to be clear) then I do not find that any less mediated than the opinion of any random member of the public, in fact I find it to be more mediated.

It's been a while since I felt caught out by something being really popular that it turns out I also like when I finally hear it.

I mean, I don't think Britney is off-topic in a thread on "Pop loving music buying public vs Music writers" where you "want to hear the opinions of actual poptimist critics on whether they are a better authority on pop music than the general public inc kids who buy it", considering she was the core pop figure at the inception of poptimism.

Can't remember the last time I read a piece of music criticism, so I guess the public by default but some combo of artists sharing artists, friends, ILM threads, etc..

Reviews the length of pitchfork reviews et al are way too long for me. I guess some people enjoy reading them as an artform. Give me a quick blurb instead. Otherwise I feel like I'm reading someone's LiveJournal or academic essay.

I don't see a meaningful difference between what is v popular and critically acclaimed pop.

Look at end of year track lists across the last decade. 'Get Lucky', 'Blurred Lines', 'Trap Queen', 'Work, 'Old Town Road', 'Bad Guy' - big hits, list-toppers (even if some fell out of favour since).

Plenty of examples where most critics and most fans align on what is the best pop, even if other mega-streamed acts are ignored or dismissed by most critics.

I thought blurred lines was reviled from the off?

People who are paid to write about freebies vs. people who fork out their hard-earned cash

HI DERE! Has this been resolved yet?

I already answered the question.

I thought blurred lines was reviled from the off?

#5 single in the 2013 Pazz & Jop: https://www.villagevoice.com/2014/01/15/the-village-voices-pazz-jop-critics-poll-top-10-singles-by-year-1979-2013/

It’s a great single

That Pazz and Jop Top Ten summary is pretty nice, somehow never saw that.

At this point, I pretty much only trust algorithms. I've been training Spotify Hipster Boyfriend so long, and so hard, as to what I actually *like*, that he does get his 'made for you' and 'release radar' playlists pretty spot on, usually at least 50% stuff I am genuinely interested in.
― Extractor Fan (Branwell with an N), Friday, September 4, 2020 9:41 AM (two weeks ago)

That's the theory, but for every brilliant suggestion fueled by state-of-the-art awesome AI technology, there's five generic no-hopers who bypass all that fancy AI and just buy their way into your 'made for you' and 'release radar', which makes listening to those playlist a mostly tedious experience for me, and it's only getting worse.

Back when there really were career music critics who could write long, nuanced stuff then they held greatest sway over me. Wasn't until '86 ish that I looked to get a critic's recommendation verified by someone else before buying. These days I will take a personal recommendation over any writers still on the circuit other than maybe Richard Williams and Alex Ross.

xp

as far as I can tell, Release Radar is there to give you new releases that involve artists that you are following on Spotify. I happen to follow a huge number of artists in current genres like afropop and dancehall, where people drop new tracks all the time and do lots of features, so I get a handsome 200, mostly* relevant, ones each week, of which a small fraction is carried over from the previous week. (there’s always a few non-relevant releases by artists that share the same name with someone I’m following - no biggie, shit happens).

I’m not sure, but I assume that if you’re following a limited number of artists and/or ones that are not in the habit of releasing new material regularly, Spotify fills up your quota with stuff through its algorithms.

Wait, what, 200? I get 30, and don’t think I could handle 200 tbh

neither can I!

...but do keep in mind that the large majority of these are singles, not multi-track albums

It certainly helps to follow artists, but it also just works off stuff you have merely liked or added to a playlist.

(One problem I have is, I've made a couple of classical playlists - and classical tracks tend to list composer, orchestra, conductor and any soloists in the artist, so you can end up with anything by any of these randos turning up in your suggestions.)

If there's stuff that persistently turns up that you do not want to hear, just keep hitting 'do not play this artist' until they go away. I don't know that the 'buy your way onto playlists' thing actually works that way. I was speaking quite a lot earlier this year, to the management of a band who were trying to push their new album. You can certainly pay to push your stuff higher to people who have already expressed some kind of interest in that band (following, liking, adding to playlists) but targeting people who liked adjacent stuff was surprisingly difficult.

Finally located that Do Not Play button, thanks

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

I VOTED

Same. Went with the Critical Establishment in the end, and I already regret it.

Shame on you

My answer is B and C (And yes, I know there isn't a C)

C = diehard music fans who might as well be critics but don't write

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

65 music critics (-1 aka yours truly) can't be wrong.

Raymond Cummings otm

65 music critics (-1 aka yours truly) can't be wrong.

so some turkeys dont vote for christmas then

One monkey don't stop no show.

Ha ha god bless you.

https://rateyourmusic.com/list/schmidtt/rolling-stones-500-worst-reviews-of-all-time-work-in-progress/13/p

Wow