Whose opinions do you trust the most: Music buying public or Music Critics?

xpost he's on the panel of people I trust!

I trust the opinions of folks on ILM.

I am unsure what percentage of them are Music writers.

and I put music critics instead of rock critics deliberately.

my tastes in metal were mostly solidified before I started posting here, they just expanded a little, some of it based on convos here, some Decibel, a lot me just finding random shit on Bandcamp.

hip-hop is where my tastes really expanded simply cos I was around heads here whereas I hadn't really hung out in those circles.

but i'm always right so

imago , just like politics

Had you omitted 'pop', I'd have gone with The Public, sort of, because I come across more music I like via RYM & ILM than by reading professional criticism, at least 80% of the time.

Music buying pubic

I'm just interest in what poptimist music writers say about the public vs them really.

*interested

Ed Sheeran vs Carly Rae Jepsen = everyone loses

Brace yourself!

I trust three or four ILM threads, one or two Facebook groups, a few friends, and the odd Bandcamp recommendation.

i trust in the Lord

xp to Sund4r - that makes the decision seem a lot easier

https://i.gr-assets.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/books/1327213646l/8668908.jpg

Pop critics fete Carly Rae Jepsen and Charli XCX albums while the world is listening to Drake, Post Malone, and Ed Sheeran.

Who is the best judge of what the best pop is? is it the pop buying public?

the best pop is by the Pope

I'll take CRJ and Charli XCX over the other doofuses so it's a clear-cut choice for me in this instance, even though, to echo Sund4r, I'd also be on the losing end.

Post Malone's Nirvana covers were pretty good.

ilx poptimism def always preferred pop that wasn't that popular

Charli XCX is our queen

Britney was the one shining moment where the two converged, like two carts of manure colliding in the night.xp

Anyone with an opinion is essentially a critic - either can be insightful or ignorant but at least professional critics are obligated to hear virtually everything and know something about what they're talking about.

Britney was the one shining moment where the two converged, like two carts of manure colliding in the night.

Beautiful. I salute you.

I do think 'Toxic' is fine for what it is, but the rest of her music has always sounded like this to me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jM8XdUNhNmU

Scratch that, this is in fact the best conceivable 'Toxic' cover of all.

oh shit is that the new iwrestledabearonce?

Pop critics fete Carly Rae Jepsen and Charli XCX albums while the world is listening to Drake, Post Malone, and Ed Sheeran.

name them

boy after the way this year's gone, i can't trust anybody.

anymore it's just friends, you guys here, and. . . that's it, honestly.

the music buying public for me means people's real connection to music, not as filtered through adverts, lifestyle journalism, etc. but as something that genuinely gives them joy. As far as opinions go, that's the only standard you can trust. I don't look to music critics for their superior opinions, just good writing.

name them

Name whom? Critics who praise Carly Rae Jepsen? She had the #3 album in the 2015 Pazz & Jop critics' poll. You can see a list of critics who voted for it halfway down this page: http://furia.com/pjs/artist_8041.html

These are some publications that ranked it among the best of that year: https://www.yearendlists.com/albums/e-mo-tion-bfe6088b-f7c7-4ee8-8e75-d8e5084fed45

Or did you mean more recently? Here are some critical rankings for Dedicated from 2019: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dedicated_(Carly_Rae_Jepsen_album)#Critical_reception

name everyone in the world

I don't trust either of their opinions. But my tastes are more in line with critics than the public at large, so I'm more apt to check out something that is getting critical buzz than something tearing up the charts.

you don't really have to trust critics now, if you read a review and it sounds kinda cool you can check it out instantly and decide for yourself

i can't listen to an album until I already know exactly how I'm supposed to feel about it the moment I put it on

Its all about sharing the cultural moment innit

Right, exactly ums. If a critic's description intrigues me I give it a quick listen. Same thing with popular stuff, really, tho usually I'm not motivated to give anything a listen til critics are fawning over it.

https://i.imgur.com/alN1kkK.jpg

250 Coastal Elite Media People/Carly Rae Jepsen Fans Can Be Wrong

Name whom? Critics who praise Carly Rae Jepsen? She had the #3 album in the 2015 Pazz & Jop critics' poll. You can see a list of critics who voted for it halfway down this page: http://furia.com/pjs/artist_8041.html

Stephen Bush also has Post Malone on his ballot.

Alex Ostroff also has Drake on his ballot.

Laur Jackson also had Drake on that ballot, and here she is going long on him:
https://www.theawl.com/2016/01/drakes-playground/

Renato Pagnani had Drake on his ballot twice, and had earlier named him as his #1 of 2013:
https://pitchfork.com/thepitch/192-my-year-in-music-renato-pagnani/

I bet clicking on some more would further dispel the alleged division, but I'm going to scrub a bathtub.

Idk what point you're making? Seems pretty empirically evident that there are critically celebrated 'pop' artists whose actual popularity is dwarfed by that of other artists who receive a lower level of critical acclaim. Pointing out that there are individual critics who rate both doesn't really disprove that.

I mean, yeah, this does suggest less acclaim: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beerbongs_%26_Bentleys#Critical_reception . The album didn't even make P&J, nor did the hit single "Rockstar".

Critics who fete modern symphonic composers or avant-garde and noise artists probably aren't praising Ed Sheeran and Post Malone either, but starting a thread to say so wouldn't tell us anything about any of the musicians in questions, or their work

but they’re... comparing pop artists to pop artists, and their respective critical reception

Does anyone here listen to Carly Rae Jepsen regularly because of her sustained critical praise, or eschew Post Malone because of his lack of same, or listen extensively to Drake despite disliking his music because of their inherent trust in the wisdom of crowds?

uh, musicians who make music i like and to an extent, professional record collectors.

i only trust tim gane, basically.

250 Coastal Elite Media People/Carly Rae Jepsen Fans Can Be Wrong

― Thoia Thoing, Maryland (Whiney G. Weingarten), Wednesday, September 2, 2020 5:11 PM (two hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

new board description?

I fully trust my wonderful judgment.

Does anyone here listen to Carly Rae Jepsen regularly because of her sustained critical praise, or eschew Post Malone because of his lack of same, or listen extensively to Drake despite disliking his music because of their inherent trust in the wisdom of crowds?

I dunno? But the point that some pop artists are more critically praised than they are commercially successful, and vice-versa for others, seems fairly sound.

Most critics are too narrowly interested in music that is "good" to the exclusion of music that is not "good" but is rewarding or interesting in some other way to be of any use to me.

Ok Brendan

Neither
Only the ilx hivemind is worthy of trust

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrS5HwjbsBM

At this point, I pretty much only trust algorithms. I've been training Spotify Hipster Boyfriend so long, and so hard, as to what I actually *like*, that he does get his 'made for you' and 'release radar' playlists pretty spot on, usually at least 50% stuff I am genuinely interested in.

I do sometimes enjoy reading the work of music critics, but for the most part, even if I find one who is fairly good at descriptive criticism (capturing *why* something is good, what fans use the music *for*, that sort of thing) I find them wholly useless at predictive criticism. I cannot remember the last time I read a professional critic who was as consistently good at spotting things I'd actually enjoy.

Even on ILX, I don't know that there was ever a specific user whose tastes aligned with mine - but more like, if there were specific clusters of users, that if they all agreed on an artist, then I was far more likely to check that artist out. (Granted, this was, like, a decade ago, and parts of the clusters have now gone.)

I don't think there *is* a general ILM hive mind; it is very balkanised now, more than it has ever been in my 2-decade experience of ILM and there are probably now distinct but different clusters whose predictive criticism might be good for their specialised corner. (The year-end polls used to be fantastic at winkling out both excellent tracks, and who comprised the reliable clusters - but they have been slipping in recent times.)

The fantastic thing I have found with Spotify Hipster Boyfriend, is that the algorithms genuinely *are* trainable, that there is a way to say "never play me this again" or "always show me stuff like this" - and that the algorithm's ego doesn't get in the way.

Many times, I have had experiences with people who have thought of themselves as ~enthusiastic music sharers~ who just wanted to turn all their friends on to new stuff. But my overwhelming experience with these guys was that it was almost always about sharing *their* taste in music, and almost never about actually paying attention to what *you* liked or looked for in music.

After multiple experiences, with different people in different spaces (yes, including ILM) - where someone would constantly push new music on me, and it was often done in a superficially friendly and excited way, you know "aw, check this out!" and "this is amazing, you gotta hear it!" - but there was a point where it wasn't reciprocal. And if it would reach a point where my preferences were not respected - if I would flat out say, "I really don't like Genre X" or "please, no more of Y, it's just not for Branwells" and they would protest "ah, you're just ~prejudiced against metal~!!!" or whatever, and try to push past my preferences, that really did not bode well for music *sharing*.

Especially if, when I tried to share stuff that I was really digging, be it girl groups or electro-pop or whatever, I would just meet a blank wall of "I just don't like that stuff." Like - OK, you're allowed to have preferences, and "just not like" entire genres, but I'm not? In that case, I am no longer taking reccommendations from you. Through therapy, I've learned that that kind of "my preferences count; yours don't" behaviour doesn't bode well for friendships in general.

But in terms of deciding whose opinions to trust on music, it's a real deciding factor.

(So voted "general public" because that is more algorithmic, as algorithms are ~made by people~)

that there is a way to say "never play me this again"

How I wish I could do that on Spotify. I keep getting recommendations for artists I don't like.

A simple click on a 'please dont recommend this artist or album again' button would be amazing.

Huh, that's weird. I know there used to be such a button, because I have definitely noped out on several artists.

But now I go into the app to look for it, I can't seem to find it? Man, that would suck if they took that facility away, because it was so incredibly useful.

(e.g. I love Neubauten, but I never ever want to hear anything by Kick Knave, at all, ever, and I managed to successfully banish him from Spotify.)

Ah, it looks like they've changed it. There is now a "verboten" symbol to the right of the album name in radio stations, but it only bans the specific song, rather than the entire artist.

Is that the phone app or desktop? I only ever use the desktop app (windows) and was unaware of any features like that.

Just checked the desktop app and looked at my discover weekly. There is indeed an icon there beside each song and if i click on it,then it gives me 2 options
I dont like this song
I dont like *insert band name*

Cheers! I had no idea

I do think 'Toxic' is fine for what it is

Agree with "fine for what it is" but the Bollywood quote is the most interesting thing about it imo.

tbh I wasn't expecting a re-run of the 99/00 Britney wars when I started this poll.

Also, I think Toxic is the best Britney single imo.

I asked you what you were expecting!

Also, this isn't war.

Honestly, neither is of much significance to me. People sharing music they dig, word of mouth, record shops/record shop owners and employees I trust, all have mattered a lot more to me than criticism per se or sales.

I mean, I don't think Britney is off-topic in a thread on "Pop loving music buying public vs Music writers" where you "want to hear the opinions of actual poptimist critics on whether they are a better authority on pop music than the general public inc kids who buy it", considering she was the core pop figure at the inception of poptimism.

Can't remember the last time I read a piece of music criticism, so I guess the public by default but some combo of artists sharing artists, friends, ILM threads, etc..

Reviews the length of pitchfork reviews et al are way too long for me. I guess some people enjoy reading them as an artform. Give me a quick blurb instead. Otherwise I feel like I'm reading someone's LiveJournal or academic essay.

I don't see a meaningful difference between what is v popular and critically acclaimed pop.

Look at end of year track lists across the last decade. 'Get Lucky', 'Blurred Lines', 'Trap Queen', 'Work, 'Old Town Road', 'Bad Guy' - big hits, list-toppers (even if some fell out of favour since).

Plenty of examples where most critics and most fans align on what is the best pop, even if other mega-streamed acts are ignored or dismissed by most critics.

I thought blurred lines was reviled from the off?

People who are paid to write about freebies vs. people who fork out their hard-earned cash

HI DERE! Has this been resolved yet?

I already answered the question.

I thought blurred lines was reviled from the off?

#5 single in the 2013 Pazz & Jop: https://www.villagevoice.com/2014/01/15/the-village-voices-pazz-jop-critics-poll-top-10-singles-by-year-1979-2013/

It’s a great single

That Pazz and Jop Top Ten summary is pretty nice, somehow never saw that.

At this point, I pretty much only trust algorithms. I've been training Spotify Hipster Boyfriend so long, and so hard, as to what I actually *like*, that he does get his 'made for you' and 'release radar' playlists pretty spot on, usually at least 50% stuff I am genuinely interested in.
― Extractor Fan (Branwell with an N), Friday, September 4, 2020 9:41 AM (two weeks ago)

That's the theory, but for every brilliant suggestion fueled by state-of-the-art awesome AI technology, there's five generic no-hopers who bypass all that fancy AI and just buy their way into your 'made for you' and 'release radar', which makes listening to those playlist a mostly tedious experience for me, and it's only getting worse.

Back when there really were career music critics who could write long, nuanced stuff then they held greatest sway over me. Wasn't until '86 ish that I looked to get a critic's recommendation verified by someone else before buying. These days I will take a personal recommendation over any writers still on the circuit other than maybe Richard Williams and Alex Ross.

xp

as far as I can tell, Release Radar is there to give you new releases that involve artists that you are following on Spotify. I happen to follow a huge number of artists in current genres like afropop and dancehall, where people drop new tracks all the time and do lots of features, so I get a handsome 200, mostly* relevant, ones each week, of which a small fraction is carried over from the previous week. (there’s always a few non-relevant releases by artists that share the same name with someone I’m following - no biggie, shit happens).

I’m not sure, but I assume that if you’re following a limited number of artists and/or ones that are not in the habit of releasing new material regularly, Spotify fills up your quota with stuff through its algorithms.

Wait, what, 200? I get 30, and don’t think I could handle 200 tbh

neither can I!

...but do keep in mind that the large majority of these are singles, not multi-track albums

It certainly helps to follow artists, but it also just works off stuff you have merely liked or added to a playlist.

(One problem I have is, I've made a couple of classical playlists - and classical tracks tend to list composer, orchestra, conductor and any soloists in the artist, so you can end up with anything by any of these randos turning up in your suggestions.)

If there's stuff that persistently turns up that you do not want to hear, just keep hitting 'do not play this artist' until they go away. I don't know that the 'buy your way onto playlists' thing actually works that way. I was speaking quite a lot earlier this year, to the management of a band who were trying to push their new album. You can certainly pay to push your stuff higher to people who have already expressed some kind of interest in that band (following, liking, adding to playlists) but targeting people who liked adjacent stuff was surprisingly difficult.

Finally located that Do Not Play button, thanks

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

I VOTED

Same. Went with the Critical Establishment in the end, and I already regret it.

Shame on you

My answer is B and C (And yes, I know there isn't a C)

C = diehard music fans who might as well be critics but don't write

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

65 music critics (-1 aka yours truly) can't be wrong.

Raymond Cummings otm

65 music critics (-1 aka yours truly) can't be wrong.

so some turkeys dont vote for christmas then

One monkey don't stop no show.

Ha ha god bless you.

https://rateyourmusic.com/list/schmidtt/rolling-stones-500-worst-reviews-of-all-time-work-in-progress/13/p

Wow