What are Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Flaws?

haha kate just surfing your vibe there :)

both parties at the national level have been captured by high finance to an extent. yes in terms of their donor base - it all stems from there - but more broadly in how they conceive of the greater good. the objective is to preserve an environment in which the big dogs can eat (in which FDI can flourish, etc). i think there's a genuine belief among a lot of politicians that the conditions for high finance roughly coincide with a 'free' and 'fair' society with a predictable legal system and a government that's not going to start 'crowding out' private investment with its own big ideas, that's not going to nationalize anything, that's not going to hand too much power to unions because they'll negotiate wage deals that drive up inflation. this is all settled in their minds. and it's all based on 30-40-year-old arguments that were playing out when they were just entering their 20s.

anyway it feels like a pretty simple formula. if it threatens our current system of high finance, it's got to go. if it strengthens it, bring it on. democrats and republicans agree 100% on this. it's their ways of getting there that are different imo - which is not to downplay that - those differences are significant and consequential

there was some study recently in the UK that showed the views of labour mps and to a lesser extent labour party members both being to the left of the average labour voter on a whole host of issues (capital punishment and nationalisation of utilities are two that i can remember). is it accepted that that’s reversed in the US?

David Shor’s take iirc is that Democratic donors and staffers are to the left of the median Democratic voter.

i am not convinced that the supposed traditions of the national Democratic party are any more deeply rooted or supported than the alleged traditions of the Republican party. i am not convinced that the things the DNC believe we "need" to hear are things that very many of us want. i am not convinced that people vote for democrats for any reason other than they vote for republicans, that they have deep and unshakable allegiance to that particular institution, that what matters is not principles, but control. i suspect that the people currently charge of the democratic party know that, believe that, and that their greatest single goal right now is _not_ the betterment of the country, but on holding onto their oligarchical power, at any cost, at all costs.

but hell, i could very well be wrong about all this shit.

Probably true at the oligarchial level, not local.

unsurprisingly we all hated david shor’s redpill takes iirc

xp

yeah, out in oregon the local party is pretty good. the local party in indiana was fucking awful, as bad or worse than the national party, but out here there's actually some decent stuff going on.

David Shor’s take iirc is that Democratic donors and staffers are to the left of the median Democratic voter.

The donor class, apparatchiks and so on might still be to the left of the voters on “social issues” but they’re well to the right on economic and ‘law and order’ issues.

Socially liberal and economically libertarian remains the quadrant devoid of adherents outside of op-ed pages and think tanks.

and the twitter profile descriptions of pretty much every twat ever

i blame the Political Compass Quiz

what a fucking pernicious bit of propaganda

i am not convinced that people vote for democrats for any reason other than they vote for republicans, that they have deep and unshakable allegiance to that particular institution, that what matters is not principles, but control.

i don't really think this is true. the deep and unshakeable part. i think it's more just...this is the way things are and always have been. like you pull the level for one or the other. and most people are tired and engrossed in their own lives and don't really have the political imagination to think it could be otherwise. you grow up in the two party system and that's all there is...and...the democrats suck but it could always be worse, so you just pull the level for the democrat...

i guess i put myself in that category, i don't really know if i truly believe change is possible, deep down.

so, if someone says choose between a $5 applebee's gift card or a swift kick in the nuts you take the gift card.

not saying this is admirable but i think a sort of frazzled exhaustion or general pessimism or just a sense of being overwhelmed by the world has a hell of a lot more to do with it than some kind of unshakeable, passionate loyalty to the democratic party.

the one (1) good thing about the trump years is that it's shown a lot of longstanding precedents to be made of not very much at all, it turns out they actually just crumble given the slightest resistance. it would be nice if that turned out to apply to some bad things as well, imo it's worth testing...

I believe that change is 100% possible. I also believe that the more violent that change is, the more violence will be visited upon marginalized communities and, once the dust settles, the people who will be better off will be White.

(or White-approved)

This is why I don't trust revolutionaries; not because their end goals are things I disagree with but their methods will be used and warped to hurt me, my friends, and my family. Taking over the system and bending it into something better sucks, takes forever, is subject to backtracking, and will never satisfy the people who need the change most, but I believe it is ultimately less harmful than pulling the rug out from underneath everyone and creating a vacuum that will be filled by all of the people who already have all of the capital and all of the connections.

^^^ this explains why so many older POC voted for Biden over Sanders.

Thanks for calling me old

Heh. You're not alone!

creating a vacuum that will be filled by all of the people who already have all of the capital and all of the connections

history has tried to tell us over and over you can't both let those people keep breathing and also let them continue to have access to their money and friends

xp nina didn't live long enough to pen "old, gifted and suppressed"

... just to live it i suppose

I believe that change is 100% possible. I also believe that the more violent that change is, the more violence will be visited upon marginalized communities and, once the dust settles, the people who will be better off will be White.

― shout-out to his family (DJP)

i believe you are right. i believe violence is both cyclical, like abuse, and an political end in itself that consumes others.

i also see some of these qualities in capitalism, that peculiar quality of being both a means and an all-consuming end. and when i look at the history of capitalism, i see that it, for the entire time it has existed, has been specifically violent against Black lives.

it is as important to me that change be as non-violent as possible as it is that change depend on capitalist oligarchy as little as possible.

history has tried to tell us over and over you can't both let those people keep breathing and also let them continue to have access to their money and friends

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reign_of_Terror
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excess_mortality_in_the_Soviet_Union_under_Joseph_Stalin#Judicial_executions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pol_Pot#Purges_and_executions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruhollah_Khomeini#Suppression_of_opposition
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleansing_the_Class_Ranks

What makes you think that this will stop at all of the people you think deserve to die, given how this scenario has played itself out in literally every society that's done it?

when i look at the history of capitalism, i see that it, for the entire time it has existed, has been specifically violent against Black lives

This is a copout to keep from admitting the culpability of White European societies for the violence they committed against the various nations of Africa and carried with them into their colonies. If you blame "capitalism", you can foist it off on an economic system and the people in that system are off the hook.

The problem is people. The problem will always be people. Every system you can think of will be bent to hurting the less-fortunate. That is the way humanity is.

seems like a false binary is being imposed here...people itt aren't proposing a revolution per DJP's examples. We are advocating radical changes from inside the system which are contingent on rejecting as "immoral" the liberal status quo.

xp how about “racial capitalism”

I love the "human nature" argument, it whips every time

I'm not surprised an ILX-level debate on the post-Marxist fallacy of separating race and class is happening again.

i think that very often, people on the left honestly don't know if they're ultimately advocating for change from inside the system or not.

look if we think these examples of revolutionary terror are bad are we obliged to support the former monarchies? if not why not

xp this is actually true

seems like a false binary is being imposed here...people itt aren't proposing a revolution per DJP's examples.

o rly

fuck reforming your genocidal slave state

― Your original display name will be displayed in brackets (Left), Wednesday, August 19, 2020 3:26 PM bookmarkflaglink

... you like it how it is?

― shout-out to his family (DJP), Wednesday, August 19, 2020 3:27 PM bookmarkflaglink

[...]

xxp of course not I want it gone

― Your original display name will be displayed in brackets (Left), Wednesday, August 19, 2020 3:31 PM bookmarkflaglink

I was saying boo urns

I’m one person

And?

Are you saying you shouldn't be taken seriously, that you don't mean what you write and that you aren't trying to influence thought or bend the shape of the conversation when you join in? Are you just full of shit or are you serious?

Because if you're full of shit, fuck off and let the adults talk.

What makes you think that this will stop at all of the people you think deserve to die, given how this scenario has played itself out in literally every society that's done it?

― shout-out to his family (DJP)

i don't think anybody deserves to die, djp. more to the point, i don't decide who lives and who dies.

i know what these people did. i know there are a lot of people on the left who would like to do that some more. they are called "tankies" and i do not talk to them, will not work with them, do not have common cause with them.

i don't talk to republicans either.

the problem may be "people" in general - and I don't the root cause of racism is "people", I think the problem is, specifically, _White_ people. White anti-Black racism didn't start with capitalism, and i don't expect it to end with capitalism. i also don't believe it will end, _ever_, under capitalism. ending capitalism is, to me, a necessary but not sufficient step in addressing White dehumanization, violence, and abuse towards Black lives. ultimately, as a White person, I cannot, _will_ not, _ever_ end anti-Black racism. I am too embedded in systems of privilege to ever be able to do that.

i have a tendency, djp, a tendency towards pessimism, to fatalism, to seeing the possible negative effects of any change more than i can see any positive effects. i have had to work, have to work, very hard to open myself up to change. it terrifies me. i have a lot to lose. you certainly have more to lose than i do, are at greater _risk_ than i am. everything you're saying is true and correct and honest. you have an absolute inalienable right to it.

i'm willing to take certain risks. i do what i can to protect other vulnerable people, to protect people i care about, but you're right not to trust me. you shouldn't trust me. i'm White, I'm not going to do a better job at that than any other White person. at the same time you do _deserve_ more, not just more than you have, but more than you can even _hope for_ under the current way of doing things in america. you have the right to give that up, to decide to do without, to, well, _compromise_. i do a lot of compromising myself. i'm just not able to compromise everything you are.

I love the "human nature" argument, it whips every time

It's not 'nature' per se, but given our record as a species it's only fair to assume we'll fuck it up again and again.

*track record

This is a copout to keep from admitting the culpability of White European societies for the violence they committed against the various nations of Africa and carried with them into their colonies. If you blame "capitalism", you can foist it off on an economic system and the people in that system are off the hook.]

i want to say that this is like saying that if you blame "fascism" for the third reich you foist the violence they committed on jews/gays/minorities off on an ideological system and the people in that system are off the hook. but honestly it's making me think more deeply about the relationship between capitalism/colonialism and violence. i think it's pretty clear that ideological systems like capitalism drive a lot of violence - on the other hand violence has an independent life to it that isn't so easily linked to an ideological system. it does sort of have its own internal sustaining logic. i think that's a good reason to mistrust revolutionaries.

on the other hand, have we really come to the point where taxing rich people and defunding police is equated with revolutionary violence? because that's absurd.

I am a moderate; I do think some ppl probably deserve to die for the misery they've inflicted, but I do not nominate myself for the selection committee.

most revolutionaries I know (who are, it should be said, very far from an all-white lot) would be fine with merely jailing them forever and relieving them of their money

Quiet Revolutions have been known to work, sort of.

I would file 'taxing rich people and defunding police' under that category.

DJP I’m serious but I don’t represent everyone. or anyone else. obviously

I know “death to america” is marginal enough within most of the USA to be dismissed as unserious but it’s actually quite a popular position elsewhere

on the other hand, have we really come to the point where taxing rich people and defunding police is equated with revolutionary violence?

I have never said this. I believe I am on record as being enthusiastic about taxing the fuck out of rich people (including myself), draining money out of police departments, and forcing accountability to the communities they serve upon police departments. If I'm not on the record, that is where I stand.

Where I also stand is that I believe that unless these changes have both race and class concerns at the center of their implementations, they will help mainstream White people and those deemed acceptable by mainstream White people and fuck over everyone else. I still probably would come out ahead in that scenario. It would still be wrong.

DJP I’m serious but I don’t represent everyone. or anyone else. obviously

I know “death to america” is marginal enough within most of the USA to be dismissed as unserious but it’s actually quite a popular position elsewhere

I didn't say you were unserious. YOU said you were unserious by responding with "I'm just one person". You are the one underselling and undercutting your own positions and words; I'm taking what you're giving me.

personally think that any form of radicalism that points to incarceration as a legitimate form of retribution is misguided

xp thanks for that clarification, completely agree

iirc

There were two 'Reigns of Terror,' if we would but remember it and consider it; the one wrought murder in hot passion, the other in heartless cold blood; the one lasted mere months, the other had lasted a thousand years; the one inflicted death upon ten thousand persons, the other upon a hundred millions; but our shudders are all for the 'horrors' of the minor Terror, the momentary Terror, so to speak; whereas, what is the horror of swift death by the axe, compared with lifelong death from hunger, cold, insult, cruelty, and heart-break?

What is swift death by lightning compared with death by slow fire at the stake? A city cemetery could contain the coffins filled by that brief Terror which we have all been so diligently taught to shiver at and mourn over; but all France could hardly contain the coffins filled by that older and real Terror--that unspeakably bitter and awful Terror which none of us has been taught to see in its vastness or pity as it deserves.