Joe Biden, Senator from Citibank (oops, DELAWARE), to Run for President

All white people are racists. The sooner people get this, the better.

― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, August 12, 2020 11:13 AM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

this is otm but i think there's something about the way we discuss being a "racist" that's not really helpful as if it's some well-defined state of being.
you see this a lot when people say racist shit and then people defend them saying "i know this person is not a racist in their heart" as if it's like...being diabetic or not diabetic...if a person is saying racist things, that's not really meaningfully distinct from being a "racist inside" from the perspective of the POC that the language is actively hurting

i think white people should just acknowledge that ingrained racism is something that happens to all of us, how couldn't it? and you need to try to examine yourself and your prejudices and work through it, just the same way, for instance, maybe you had family experiences or an upbringing that made it hard for you to communicate, or things that affect your romantic relationships negatively...

but i don't think there's any end point where you can say "okay i came through the tunnel now i'm Not A Racist"

Oh good, Neera Tanden's ghost writing for him re: socialized healthcare didn't help Italy!!!

When you define racism down to "anyone who benefits from structural racism is racist" and then further to "all white people are racists," it doesn't seem helpful.

I know it woos no new allies from the people from whom we should be recruiting, but, as a gay Latino, I've accepted that I'm a chauvinist by nature of being a gay Latino in the same way I can be condescending or talk over people -- these are phenomena of varying degrees of loathsomeness but I acknowledge I gotta work on them. I will never improve or stop being these things; human nature doesn't work like this. All I can do is stop myself when I feel them burble up to potentially damage relations with someone I love.

To say "I have chauvinistic qualities but I'm no chauvinist!" is nitpicking imo.

In other words, being male means I have tendencies that make me loathsome to more than half the world's populations. I gotta acknowledge and work on them.

Thanks for the reply. I mean, I totally understand the impulse to just say "fuck being helpful, white people suck!" I try to stay vigilant around my biases as much as possible since I'm a cishetwhiteguy, and I have DEFINITELY benefited from structural racism. I just get bummed out with the constant talk about how much white people suck. Like, let's talk about the behavior and not the person.

I also agree, it's close to the "people aren't stupid, they just do stupid things" axiom. sure would be nice and easy to just reduce it though

Thanks for the reply. I mean, I totally understand the impulse to just say "fuck being helpful, white people suck!" I try to stay vigilant around my biases as much as possible since I'm a cishetwhiteguy, and I have DEFINITELY benefited from structural racism. I just get bummed out with the constant talk about how much white people suck. Like, let's talk about the behavior and not the person.

― DJI

like to me i'd prefer the conversation not really be about either. just talking about the behavior comes perilously close to "mean people suck"-style toothless tautologies. my way of looking at it is that there are specific biases that are intrinsic to white racial identity. denying one's own white racial identity does nothing to address these biases - it serves only to entrench them deeper while simultaneously normalize them. my personal approach is to recognize and acknowledge my essentially unavoidable complicity in white power structures without turning that into a matter for individual guilt or shame. america, in particular, as a state centered around hyperindividualist norms, is extremely resistant to understanding patterns of behavior that are neither individual nor universal.

my personal approach is to recognize and acknowledge my essentially unavoidable complicity in white power structures without turning that into a matter for individual guilt or shame

otm -- it turns into another iteration of therapy.

When you define racism down to "anyone who benefits from structural racism is racist" and then further to "all white people are racists," it doesn't seem helpful.

Define "helpful" because IMO making the majority of white people understand the concept of "white supremacy" and having them buy into helping actively dismantle it would be extremely helpful

otmfm

I don't think saying "all white people are racists" is helpful in getting anyone to buy in to antiracism who isn't already bought in.

Also, "shame" is a starting point. It's part of -- or should lead to -- acceptance.

I don't think saying "all white people are racists" is helpful in getting anyone to buy in to antiracism who isn't already bought in.

― DJI

what are white people who are unable or unwilling to acknowledge their own complicity in white supremacist power structures buying into, exactly?

a bunch of bullshit, usually.

Well, I can tell you that "not all white people are racists" also isn't helpful because virtually every single white person says "oh there's an exception? that must apply to me"

Biden's policy positions over the years may well make him a racist, but it is a fact that Kamala Harris did not call him a racist. In fact, she literally said, "I do not believe you are a racist." So if the question is, why did Biden choose someone who called him a racist, the answer is she didn't.

"Why did Biden choose someone who didn't call him a racist?"

m@tt’s approach is mine as well

just now remembering why I don't source my messaging tips from ilx

sorry I meant that excerpted rushomancy approach is mine

lol@Simon

"Vote for me, you racists!"

Also, "shame" is a starting point. It's part of -- or should lead to -- acceptance.

― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, August 12, 2020 3:30 PM (fifty-seven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Are we certain it works? Genuinely asking, sometimes I have the feeling it does the opposite.

The problem is that nothing actually works.

I mean, considering how many Twitter bios still proudly embrace "deplorable", maybe that's not far off...

pretty sure the evidence points to shame being ineffective tbh

The problem is that nothing actually works.

:(

yeah if shame was effective trump wouldn't have a single voter

or, like, exist

The problem is that nothing actually works.

― shout-out to his family (DJP), Wednesday, August 12, 2020 4:39 PM (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Some cultures/nations/societies are definitively more racist than others, I find it disheartening to believe it’s all due to randomness.

lol so I guess Core Civic (Big Prison) stocks jumped yesterday afternoon for some reason

building a robust working class opposition movement couldn't hurt :) xp

we're doing that in the prisons!

in the decades since the '60s civil rights era, most liberal folks kids have been raised to learn that racism is/was discrimination, segregation, meanness, and acts of deliberate harm or negligence - especially against blacks. it's past-tense, with a few exceptions.

if this is the story that a kid is raised with, it's easy (and honest-feeling) for the adult that grew up from that kid to say 'i'm not racist because I don't discriminate, i don't support segregation, i've got black friends, and i would never allow harm to occur on the basis of race. hell, i really liked hamilton.'

i am pretty certain joe biden is one of these people.

at work, i've seen that when the above-type person is confronted with the statement 'all white people are racist' they honestly believe that it is hyperbolic and assaultive because, given way they were raised, they 'know' they are not racist. it lands like a slap in the face, and it doesn't cause shame or reflection – it causes retreat and anger. sometimes these 'not racist' people just shut down, and sometimes they deferentially mouth 'yeah, all white people are racist' without believing it, because they don't want to have to engage negatively w/ bipoc folk with whom they're afraid to disagree (because their liberalism impels them believe in the overall idea of anti-racism, without actually listening to the most impacted people).

however, little 'nitpicky' tweaks to language, e.g. talking about the 'historical idea of whiteness' or 'racist institutions' (which everybody knows are white-coded) sneaks important ideas in under the radars of these 'good, not-racist people.' it keeps hackles down, it lets people who perpetuate white supremacy recognize their racist tendencies, and it gives them space to say 'ahh, i DID benefit from the status quo' and acknowledge their own complicity with some cover. it's easy to say this is 'catering to fragility' and yes it really sucks a lot of the time, and yes it makes more work for brown folx, but also it *can* be useful as a way to change minds.

too bad our stupid geezer maybe-president needs somebody to sit down and have this conversation with him.

xxp ok walking that back—Core Civic just moved to a new index, hence the jump

& also i believe it works best when it is paired with frank and immediate labeling of racist behavior

Every racist relative in my life is only ready to call an act "racist" when (a) a black person is murdered by an overt neo-Nazi (b) separate public facilities.

xposts

The problem is that nothing actually works.

― shout-out to his family (DJP), Wednesday, August 12, 2020 4:39 PM (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Some cultures/nations/societies are definitively more racist than others, I find it disheartening to believe it’s all due to randomness.

― Van Horn Street, Wednesday, August 12, 2020 3:44 PM (twelve minutes ago)

hopefully it's closer to "no single approach works all the time". the direct confrontation approach that works well with some people will completely alienate others, even radicalize them in some cases. people respond to the idea of "all white people are racist" in different ways. one person hears that and thinks about the racist structure and their own role in that, and what can be done to change it. another hears the same thing and thinks "then why is it my problem, if it's inevitable?" or just tries to think of individuals they know who don't seem racist and refute it that way. some people feel liberated by the idea of being part of a larger problem, others react very negatively to that idea.

with my dad, i feel like i almost made things worse by calling out his actions as racist so many times to his face over the last few years. he never, once, tried to refute my assertions that his speech, writing, and actions were racist. instead he seemed to double-down on the religious underpinning of his beliefs, as if to say "if the 'world' thinks that i am a racist, so be it, amen". in some ways i feel like i raised this idea that he was racist to his face, one that he wasn't thinking about, and then caused him to double-down on it. when my "you're a goddamn racist" approach didn't work, i told him that i thought _I_ was a racist too, and that i thought everyone was. i talked about the racist structure, gave him a couple book recommendations, stuff like that. he had absolutely no reaction. now, my dad is the dumbest fucking person in the entire universe, so i'm not saying most people are like him.

so in some cases, maybe nothing actually works. nothing i can think of. but i hope, for most people, some approach does. but it's really hard to make a general statement about what approach works for any given person

the direct confrontation approach that works well with some people will completely alienate others, even radicalize them in some cases

Now there's an understatement. 'All white people are racist' scans as obvious trolling to a significant segment of the population, not all of whom are supposedly 'white'. Ime cooly and 'neutrally' (even if there is no such thing) discussing the topic with racists and subtly exposing them to patterns of thought they otherwise tend to reject outright because the 'liberal' label is patently affixed to them generally works better in the long run, although it goes without saying that lost causes are the norm (see the right-wing brain worms thread) and that you also need to attend to your own inevitable psychological distress when undertaking such rhetorical labour. But I don't live in a country where an all-out race war has been unfolding for generations (or rather not quite to the same extent), so feel free to take my approach with a grain of salt.

The problem is that nothing actually works.

― shout-out to his family (DJP)

insofar as there's nothing anybody can do to turn anybody else from Not Racist to someone who supports, even in the most milquetoast and provisional way (/me waves), action against white supremacist power structures, i agree

this is i suspect core to the ongoing processes of breakdown and fragmentation. i used to judge the hippies really harshly for abandoning political action, but what could they hope for from it, really? nothing to do but shrug and walk away and take what one can where one can get it.

I hope it's clear when I wrote "All white people are racist" is not a slogan, nor is it intended as a T-shirt phrase or strategy.

my personal fave is when you try to hector someone out of a racist position and they ultimately concede the point but actually just go on thinking the same old shit anyway (hi dad)

"all white people are racist" also invites a completely absurd corollary that is easily disproven and renders the entire discussion worse than useless.

as above, better to describe behaviors as racist, and not call people racist as if it's an intrinsic property, even if it kind of is (cf Alfred's excellent post above about chauvinism)

i do feel like maybe more people are getting it, but yeah, the way i go about it i do make a lot of enemies, which is unfortunate because i have enough fucking enemies already. and against that there is the constant thrum of the centrists who, apparently to keep hold of their own tenuous sanity, convince themselves that those of us who really don't like biden, who really won't _vote_ for biden, are simply some deranged hyper-minority, that we're not real, that we don't exist.

it wears on one.

Dunno, with my own dad, I've seen progress. Last year it seemed like even a recent topical conversation where he ultimately agreed with me had been relegated to oblivion the very next day but in the ensuing months I could tell he no longer leaped to the same conclusions as easily and sometimes even abandoned those positions altogether. It takes time, which fucking sucks, but I have no idea how else we're supposed to do this.

2xp to Simon

what if i told you there was a pill that could make it happen instantly, and the pill is called hydroxychloroquine

Biden and Harris speaking live.

Biden likened Trump to Hitler.

the bitterest pill (is hard to feed to my dad)

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BMzJhNTM0NzItZjRiYi00YjhmLTliOTItYjM5NDc3MzJlOTgwXkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyMTAyMzYwNzgw._V1_.jpg

Please, tell me more.

Damn, Paul Weller has aged