should i give the grateful dead a chance?

The surest sign that the answer to the thread question is 'No' is that I've become a fan of the podcast/internet radio show Time Crisis, where the Dead are a pet topic and one of the dudes has a tribute band (with the perfect name Richard Pictures). It's entertaining to hear them talk about GD and defend their cultural reputation etc, and yet any time I actually hear them (especially the live recordings) I'm still instantly repulsed.

I even came around to Vampire Weekend through the show (at least the most recent album), but the Dead are still a giant nope for me.

Haha I didn't realize that someone from Richard Pictures was involved in that podcast. Yeah, that's by far my favorite tribute band name.

He's the older brother of the guy from Dirty Projectors

"I think it's safe to skip '67 to '70 though" -- I would only do this if working from the principle that they are so widely acknowledged as "formative/great" versions then why bother? If you are actually diving in without that as your guiding principle then yeah, definitely start from the beginning. I LOVE the early Dark Stars, still basically my favorite GD shit.

Ha, I've been doing the same thing. Those really early 3-4 minute "Dark Star" versions from early '68 are interesting in their own right. I really dug a trip through the 1/22/68 version that came out of a killer early "Spanish Jam".

Agree. It was a fascinating progression.

The original, album version of Dark Star is the best one, it just gets gradually worse after that over time.

The original, album version of Dark Star is the best one, it just gets gradually worse after that over time.

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive)

the original version of dark star isn't the album version

album version?

somebody on here did go through and make a list of dark stars from every year.. it’s on this thread or the dick’s picks one

It was never on an album, there was a 1967 studio version that has popped up on various comps over time.

It was a single issued around the time of Anthem, since there wasn't a viable candidate from that album aside from "Born Cross-Eyed" (which, iirc, was the flip).

Yeah, that was the B-side.

here's a mix of all the 1972 Dark Stars — https://archive.org/details/DarkStar1972

Lol Jordan, getting into Time Crisis was instrumental in me giving the Dead a serious chance, but I have actually grown to appreciate them more. It is funny when they hear real rough live cuts and admit that they're terrible. I think my favorite Dead-adjacent discovery from TC is Jerry's live albums with Merl Saunders. They cover a lot of soul and reggae - Ain't No Woman and The Harder They Come are great!

Listening to some of the 1968 Dark Stars and they all have this annoying Rhodes (is it?) loop thing going on.

Bohh very annoying! Seems to have dissapeared by feb 11 1969 @ Fillmore East

assume the OP is talking about the Live Ded version which was live at the Fillmore West in February 69. and is about 20 minutes longer than the single version. It's presumably the best known version of the track. But I think the song wasa staple for ages and appeared at nearly every gig before being alternated with the Other One in the early 70s.

xp I think you're talking about Pigpen's ultra-repetitive organ riff, which is indeed super annoying on those early Dark Stars. Check out 10/12/68 for a Pigpen-free version from that era that absolutely slays. The whole show is a top 5 of all time for me--80 minutes of psychedelic lightning.

1972 was the best year for Dark Star. Too many great versions to mention and all are worth hearing, so you could do a lot worse than checking out that 1972 Dark Star mix on the Archive.

The single best Dark Star imo is 8/1/73. Keith is on Rhodes, and the band functions as a single organism channeling high-energy rainbow-hued space fusion. Post-verse they go into quasi-ambient rubato mode with Jerry playing some searing acid-western slide guitar, setting the stage for a brilliant segue into El Paso.

it was Jerry's Birthday if I'm reading the date right. Been a while since I heard that set but think I remember a soul influence on it.
Can remember crossing London by bus while listening to that set but it has bee a while since i actually heard it.

It's an annoying riff, but it's the one Jerry wanted him to play while he and Phil and took the lead in exploring. There's some early versions in January '68 where you can hear Pig really struggling with it (or maybe just bored out of his mind with it).

xp Yeah that was Jerry's birthday at Roosevelt Stadium, Jersey City, NJ. Soulful is an apt descriptor for that set 2 sequence. There's also a lovely Bird Song in the first set.

Late 68 some of the band were vying for both Pigpen and Bob Weir to be fired from the band.l Which coincides witha number fo sets recorded wthout either onboard which gives way to moe open ended jamming. BUt I do like the behind the beat rhythm guitar thing Weir did.
& Pigpen wasa decent singer. But only a garage/r'n'b keyboardist not one open to endless jamming.
He was sorely missed when he went though i think.

But they brought in Topm Constanten in late 68 to 69 and he was a bit more technical. & then Keith Godchaux in early 71 to do some more open ended stuff, though mainly on piano.

It's an annoying riff, but it's the one Jerry wanted him to play while he and Phil and took the lead in exploring. There's some early versions in January '68 where you can hear Pig really struggling with it (or maybe just bored out of his mind with it).

I see thanks for the insight. So I guess when Pigpen left the riff went with him, thankfully :)

No, he stopped playing it after awhile and moved over to guiro

xxxp -- sorry I meant "studio version" not "album version"

Goddamn Jery Garcia Band sounds much tighter than GD most of the time. Jerry's voice sounds pretty damn good too. Better even? Now I'm thinking I should give the JGB as much time as I should GD. Ain't got no time for anything else anymore in 2020...and beyond...

I was a big fan of the How Sweet It Is album that came out in 1997. Haven't listened to any of the releases since then though.

You totally need this if you don't already have it.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/06/Jerry_Garcia_Band.jpg/220px-Jerry_Garcia_Band.jpg

Let's put it on the list then :)

You might find this useful: Jerry Garcia Solo/JGB/Grisman/etc. - S/D

Also, this guy's got tons of stuff, by Jerry, Dead, many others---note that they're all alphabetical by first name--these are FLACs, but he's got everything in mp3s also, just check the main menu.
http://www.ousterhout.net/lossless/jgarcia.html

Late 68 some of the band were vying for both Pigpen and Bob Weir to be fired from the band.l Which coincides witha number fo sets recorded wthout either onboard which gives way to moe open ended jamming. BUt I do like the behind the beat rhythm guitar thing Weir did.
& Pigpen wasa decent singer. But only a garage/r'n'b keyboardist not one open to endless jamming.
He was sorely missed when he went though i think.

But they brought in Topm Constanten in late 68 to 69 and he was a bit more technical.

was recently listening to a dark star from their april 1971 fillmore east run with some particularly spacey keys throughout and was thinking no way this is pigpen, turned out tc was sitting in for that show.

re the pigpen/weir-less thing: if my memory of the material released as mickey & the heartbeats is anything to go by, i think it's a very good thing they reconsidered.

re the pigpen/weir-less thing: if my memory of the material released as mickey & the heartbeats is anything to go by, i think it's a very good thing they reconsidered.

― no lime tangier

it's... hard to say. the thing about the dead for me was that they were always a giant, rolling clusterfuck. honestly, i'd kind of like to hear what a garcia/lesh/kreutzmann power trio could have done! it might have been awful but the dead were awful a lot of the time anyway!

I've been thinking lately that lesh might be the most crucial member of the band. His bass might be more important to what made the dead the dead than Jerry's guitar or vocals.

that's crazy talk

i'd say that jerry, bob, phil, and billy were _all_ crucial to the band as they were. i just am not really taken with most of what weir brought to it :)

lol at that ousterhout site, 284 bootlegs of which a good 80% plus are marked as "REALLY GOOD", this is why people don't get into dead boots :)

haha, not only that one of the only '72 shows he _doesn't_ list as exceptional is portland 07-25, which has that all-time pre-verse jam in "the other one"!

The most distinctive part of the dead (for me) is that weird, loping shuffle so much of their stuff has, for which I think Lesh is most responsible.

xp to waterface

bob's rhythm playing in 72 is quite impressive stuff but on the whole i agree

yeah i mean to each his/her own, maybe weir all listening 2 different bands in a way

god help me I really like the rock n roll type stuff bob sings like “promised land” and “going down the line”

ousterhout linked mainly for the Garcia sidetrips; the ones I've listened to are good. ditto Dead sets.
Christgau's early Dead articles, archived on his site, incl. mention of the Pigpen-Weir band, which was an idea some or all of the others had, but, according to xgau, they couldn't afford it, meaning, I take it, couldn't afford to hire more musos for such a band, or sep. road crew, if they shunted this projected thing off to sep. gigs, rather than opening act on Dead tours (Xgau says Pigpen was the favorite of a big audience segment, be hard to follow, esp, when shifting gears into more varied excursions).
I do know people who turned against them when Pig was gone, won't listen to anything later.

hard to follow, esp, when shifting gears into more varied excursions) And this was already happening while he was in the Dead, which was a reason for wanting him excised, again according to the 'gau.

The Pigpen Review! I think a "review" was pretty full-sized presentation.
Musically, this made sense, but because the Dead was also a spiritual unit, it was distressing. Then it was revealed that this was a breakup with a difference: two groups would result but the new one, to be called the Pigpen Revue, would tour with the Dead.
It never did happen, partly because the group, which is always in debt no matter how much money it earns, couldn't handle the finances. When the Dead appeared here last February, Tom Constanten was on organ. But Pigpen was on-stage too, banging inaudibly on a set of bongos and singing or blowing mouth-harp sometimes. The Dead wouldn't have been right without Pigpen to root them to the ground,and they knew it. Not only was their music better than ever, so was their gestalt. On their recent Aoxomoxoa (Warner Brothers WS 1790), the last three credits read: "Bill Krutzmann/Percussion; Tom Constanten/Keyboards; Rod McKernan/Pig Pen." He is his own instrument.
From https://www.robertchristgau.com/xg/news/grateful-69.php

The part about him being the favorite of segment is in another newspaper story somewhere on there, I think; anyway,I've certainly heard it from heads.

Re: Weir. Him singing El Paso Is some underachieving shit i cringe everytime i see it on youtube. The look in his eyes says get me out of here i dont know why he doesnt belt it out more confidently. Such things fascinate me

Never understand all the shit Bob Weir gets. Rhythm guitar > lead guitar.

Yeah, he doesn't have the charisma of Garcia, but can be very effective performer---rizzx, hope you've got Weir's Ace on your list.

I should prob have said he doesn't have the talent and skill of Garcia, but more of an everyman figure, and certainly the journeyman, never slick enough to be the hack, but learning on the job (starting as Garcia's student at the guitar store),