I've noticed Flowers being played all over the place here in East London recently!
― chap, Sunday, 2 August 2020 12:23 (three years ago) link
Didn’t realise there was a thread!At first I didn’t like the ending, but I kept thinking about it, and it wouldn’t leave me alone.
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Sunday, 2 August 2020 13:16 (three years ago) link
I loved the show, and I realized that the twinges of dissatisfaction I felt after watching it were largely because the show's resolute apoliticism isn’t meant to be satisfying
― flamboyant goon tie included, Sunday, 2 August 2020 13:49 (three years ago) link
I totally missed this thread - there was some chat on the female showrunners one.I feel I missed a lot and could do with re-watching - the way it evolved from episode to episode was great.
― kinder, Sunday, 2 August 2020 13:51 (three years ago) link
btw in the halloween episode who saw and who missed the figure floating above her bed? I went back to watch it and she has taken up residence in my head :/ (same shot shows 'under the bed' sort of illuminated too)
― kinder, Sunday, 2 August 2020 13:55 (three years ago) link
I'm gonna watch it again for sure, I was confused by a lot of it (the threesome situation in the first couple episodes especially, I didn't really get what was happening.)
The most satisfying part of the show for me was the banal-source-of-stability "token white roommate", he was the perfect balance of nondescript and nourishing, a shredded wheat of a character-- I loved that the most supportive white man in Bella's life is basically himself a bit of a houseplant.
Part of me wondered if the show had an "anti-woke" thesis-- Ep 12 depicted an unsatisfying punitive resolution, an unsatisfying reconciliatory resolution, a pipe dream "women are given men's power and don't abuse it" fantasy that was bittersweet in its beauty and "wouldn't that be nice"-ness. But the solution ends up being provided by Miss You-Think-I'm-Your-Ally-Because-We're-Both-Black-But-I'm-Actually-Your-Boss-- I gasped when Suzy said, in response to the mention of "melanin": “do you believe in multiple races as a rational taxonomy?”. Suzy's solution being: "do you grow?" and Bella's endgame in moving past her trauma is exactly this, not justice, not closure, not reconciliation, but just "growing"-- literally depicted with that *pop* moment and it's a year later and the plants are that much bigger.
It felt like it was nodding toward "woke" solutions as viable possibilities (see also: Zain's cancellation and then summary redemptive moment) but landing on fundamentally-Resilience!-style systems of trauma recovery (that is: "you're fine, stop being such a wimp and get on with it", which are nice in theory but not an option to certain people with severe or ongoing traumas.) Kwame's trauma recovery was essentially the same-- oh so to recover from a violent rape you just need to meet the right man and move on? OK! I don't disagree but that is a very pretty thought.
― flamboyant goon tie included, Sunday, 2 August 2020 14:07 (three years ago) link
Part of me wondered if the show had an "anti-woke" thesis
― let them microwave their rice (gyac), Sunday, 2 August 2020 14:27 (three years ago) link
I think I posted this on the other thread, but one area I'm not sure I 'got' fully was Theo in the school flashback episode (those young actors were amazing btw). It hinted at genuine abuse but seemed to turn this on its head, or was it implying any girl doing what she did probably had been exploited/abused (physically or emotionally?) at some point in her past? And then seeming to show adult Theo as a con artist of sorts. Putting herself in a position of trust to Bella by a perceived shared experience - possibly parallels there to Susy Henny early on.
― kinder, Sunday, 2 August 2020 14:31 (three years ago) link
Yeah, the end of that episode (6: The Alliance) had all three of us spontaneously shouting "WHAT THE FUCK JUST HAPPENED" at the credits, and it marked the point when we stepped up from watching episodes every two or three days or so, to religiously watching one (or latterly two) every night. I just didn't know how to read Theodora at that stage, it was really disturbing. Ultimately - and this is only on balance, further down the line - I didn't think she was a con artist in adult life. She had exacted teenage revenge for the violation of the phone photos, in much the same way she'd been trained to by her mother at a younger age.
I think I twigged that the first ending (the violent/vengeful one) in the final episode was a fantasy, when I spotted Theodora's teenage pink streak was back in her early-30s hair. But I'm still not 100% sure that I actually saw that, either. There are so many little details like that - it what makes me want to re-watch.
(xpost: SFA's "Flowers" is also having a revival via the Nathan Dawe cover that's been in the UK charts for most of the year.)
― mike t-diva, Sunday, 2 August 2020 14:42 (three years ago) link
Maybe not "anti-woke", no, wrong choice of words, but a kind of a broadly critical gaze.
― flamboyant goon tie included, Sunday, 2 August 2020 15:00 (three years ago) link
Four episodes in. I do like it so far, the music is really great and thankfully the EPs are not too long. Lots of good London detail, yes.
I think there might be too much back and forth in time. Bit too eager to impress but it's not too annoying.
― xyzzzz__, Monday, 3 August 2020 12:22 (three years ago) link
The back and forth in time is necessary I think, questions of memory, comprehension, withheld information etc are all absolutely central both to the story and thematically. Also it all needs to be centered around the first night (and the night of the last episode).
― Matt DC, Monday, 3 August 2020 12:31 (three years ago) link
about halfway through this, I really enjoy it though my wife is finding it hard going. Her review: "this is very rapey".
― akm, Monday, 3 August 2020 14:23 (three years ago) link
"the threesome situation in the first couple episodes especially, I didn't really get what was happening" I didn't at first either (I watched the first episode, part of the second, fell asleep...then went back and rewatched a few weeks later). Basically dude's wife is open to a threesome, I think she maybe initiated the request, and he 'found' a third person, who was actually someone he was banging on the side, and she did it because she wanted to meet his wife. That's all.
it's not clear to me why his cousin was there with him at the meet though
― akm, Monday, 3 August 2020 14:26 (three years ago) link
Distraction, i thought. You see how quickly Alissa flips and how unpredictable she can be.
― let them microwave their rice (gyac), Monday, 3 August 2020 14:40 (three years ago) link
I'm curious
Why did Suzy so abruptly drop Bella? I thought it was because "she was asking for more money" and "she wasn't delivering the draft" and "Suzy found her irritating". Bf says "no, Suzy was trying to cover up the fact that she was still publishing Zain, it was a direct response to her inquiries about 'Della'"
― flamboyant goon tie included, Monday, 3 August 2020 14:41 (three years ago) link
Mostly the latter, but the reliability aspect matters too. Susy is a cold-blooded capitalist through and through.
― let them microwave their rice (gyac), Monday, 3 August 2020 14:49 (three years ago) link
But then she scarcely appears again, does she? I felt there were a lot of underwritten or unfinished fragments like this, bits that seem to have no real purpose othen than perhaps to show that life isn't neat.
― fetter, Monday, 3 August 2020 14:51 (three years ago) link
There’s that fairly memorable scene with Bella! But messiness definitely a factor, the Simon stuff never felt very satisfying to me.
― let them microwave their rice (gyac), Monday, 3 August 2020 14:52 (three years ago) link
Why can't it be all of those things fgti?
Plus - Bella publicly outed another author on Susy's roster as a rapist. Which calls Susy's judgement into question. This is not the kind of publicity Susy wants. It's one thing to have a viral troublemaker on your hands, but when they don't deliver, and are trashing your brand...
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Monday, 3 August 2020 14:56 (three years ago) link
Yeah Simon and his girlfriend were really prominent in the first episode, lots of character detail (literally what they were having for dinner), camera following them home etc, and they just disappeared. I suppose it was about establishing an atmosphere of (consensual) sexual freedom early on that could lead to non-consensual situations later but they were too peripheral in the story for that to quite work.
It did create the conditions for the rape to occur in the first place though, specifically Simon being absent when he might otherwise have been there to help Arabella.
Arabella's flatmate was another narrative thread that felt under-explored.
― Matt DC, Monday, 3 August 2020 15:09 (three years ago) link
Idk the flatmate kind of felt like a deliberate joke to me til the last episode, like he’s supposed to be a parody of your typically flimsy black character that gets no development and has no life of their own outside their few interactions with the protagonist.
― let them microwave their rice (gyac), Monday, 3 August 2020 15:17 (three years ago) link
Like when shes talking about crafting or something and thinking “that sounds just like him!” Think it might be the only offscreen mention he gets all series.
― let them microwave their rice (gyac), Monday, 3 August 2020 15:19 (three years ago) link
Yeah there's the scene where there's the house party and he's just in the bedroom on his laptop with his headphones in with people barging in on him, which is played for lols at the time but you later realise there's more to it.
― Matt DC, Monday, 3 August 2020 15:23 (three years ago) link
That's what I liked about him, he was an inversion of the token black friend character
― flamboyant goon tie included, Monday, 3 August 2020 15:33 (three years ago) link
Also: the clipped Received Pronunciation with which Suzy delivers that "rational taxonomy" line, wow. I loved how it seemed as if any time Bella seemed to express a desire to speak directly to Suzy, her other associates were discouraging her. Bella saw Suzy as an ally but everybody else knew she was a businesswoman.
I wish I had the words to express this complicated (not negative) feeling I had about the politic of the series as a whole, that the path toward trauma recovery seemed like Landmark-style "new possibilities" methodology, building resilience, etc.
― flamboyant goon tie included, Monday, 3 August 2020 15:40 (three years ago) link
I've seen a few ppl who had been expecting ~twist~ the flatmate to be the rapist, although it's really not that kind of show. It was kind of obvious to us who it was likely to be, right, although I'd probably need to watch ep1 again to be not distracted by the Simon storyline? (which I agree seemed quite focal then... not)
― kinder, Monday, 3 August 2020 17:30 (three years ago) link
Yeah it was obvious who it was but not who that guy was, as the audience we get the full picture that she herself is just wading through.
― let them microwave their rice (gyac), Monday, 3 August 2020 17:46 (three years ago) link
Susy was the one character who felt maybe a little too cartoonish for me, mostly because her phrasing and supercilious facial expressions seemed lifted directly from Alan Johnson in Peep Show. But we see her through Arabella's eyes so maybe that's OK.
― Matt DC, Monday, 3 August 2020 18:03 (three years ago) link
Yeah in a way it made her less frightening.
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Monday, 3 August 2020 18:19 (three years ago) link
I don't know - based on my interaction with aspiring actors, I think Suzy is pretty spot on.
― Darin, Monday, 3 August 2020 19:43 (three years ago) link
Wait a sec - sorry I'm mixing up characters.
i am three episodes short of finishing this so am avoiding reading the thread but this article touches on some of the larger themes I've run into so far:https://www.thecut.com/2020/08/sarah-schulman-conflict-is-not-abuse.html
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Monday, 3 August 2020 20:21 (three years ago) link
Oh yeah, I definitely didn't mean Terri, she's brilliant.
― Matt DC, Monday, 3 August 2020 20:26 (three years ago) link
xp to FGTI a new, agented author would always be discouraged from independently getting in touch with their powerful publisher by their agency while technically in breach of their contract, and British literary culture is very funny about directness. If a writer has burned through her signature advance, it is especially infra dig to ask one’s publisher to release more funds, and the richer the publisher the more offended they’ll be.
Everyone in British publishing knows a Susy Henny and it was hilarious to watch UK writers on Twitter fully cringe when faced with the character.
― santa clause four (suzy), Monday, 3 August 2020 21:30 (three years ago) link
one notable thing in the school flashback episode was how well the young actress channelled the older version of Terri. Quite remarkable. I think it was just about the only thing I liked in that episode, tbh, although I did appreciate the series on the whole.
― Gerneten-flüken cake (jed_), Monday, 3 August 2020 21:43 (three years ago) link
You didn’t appreciate Babycakes on the soundtrack?
― let them microwave their rice (gyac), Monday, 3 August 2020 22:13 (three years ago) link
oh yes! haha.
― Gerneten-flüken cake (jed_), Monday, 3 August 2020 22:18 (three years ago) link
@ suzy ahh ok that makes sense. Yeah I couldn't read if the conversation about houseplants that preceded Bella getting dropped was ingenuous or not-- if Suzy was "having a moment" before letting her go, or if her decision to let Suzy go was strictly to try and cover up the fact that Suzy had kept Zain on. Agree with Tracer Hand that it's likely all of these things put together.
― flamboyant goon tie included, Monday, 3 August 2020 22:54 (three years ago) link
just finished the last episode and bawled through most of it. this is an immensely rare thing Coel has made, utterly devastating and terribly clever, funny and painful and sharp and complicated and totally unique. I'm really kind of in awe. So I guess now I'll read the thread and some of her interviews.
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Tuesday, 4 August 2020 04:49 (three years ago) link
Morning, I wrote this https://t.co/2q5K7ZWzxJ— Bolu Babalola (@BeeBabs) August 4, 2020
― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 4 August 2020 16:30 (three years ago) link
Ignoring what is clearly a cry for help, Biagio has rejected Arabella’s impulsive visit and manipulatively locked her out of his home.
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Tuesday, 4 August 2020 16:39 (three years ago) link
that episode just filled me with dread, start to finish.
― Gerneten-flüken cake (jed_), Tuesday, 4 August 2020 16:42 (three years ago) link
Watching it tonight, in for a treat :)
― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 4 August 2020 16:46 (three years ago) link
i think it's pretty reasonable to describe that episode as an emotional breakdown for Bella moreso than a cry for help.
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Tuesday, 4 August 2020 16:50 (three years ago) link
When she sheepishly states that she has left her passport in his apartment, he wordlessly, coldly slides it to her beneath his door. It’s a moment that slices into sinews. In response, she jolts, physically rocked by his rejection.“Wow,” she says, in a moment of quiet, stunned realisation. And, as if this is not enough, she chases it with “Rah.”
“Wow,” she says, in a moment of quiet, stunned realisation. And, as if this is not enough, she chases it with “Rah.”
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Tuesday, 4 August 2020 18:30 (three years ago) link
Your invert the sexes point makes no sense when the show has done its best to show everyone’s side, even the rapist’s. Biagio is a prick too, he blamed Bella for her rape!
― let them microwave their rice (gyac), Tuesday, 4 August 2020 18:41 (three years ago) link
He also fucked her when she was off her face and he was stone cold sober.
That said I'm not surprised in the slightest that he kicked her out of his flat.
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, 4 August 2020 18:43 (three years ago) link
Oh yeah totally, he’d been ghosting her for ages!
― let them microwave their rice (gyac), Tuesday, 4 August 2020 18:47 (three years ago) link
She was imagining this grand love story where none existed because it suited her to believe that, because nothing else was going right, because it was Italy, because he came through and delivered evidence, and she latched onto that like it was some highly significant token of his love, when from the very beginning we've seen that he doesn't really give a shit. It's true that he called... what, a couple of times? I guess when he was bored or lonely himself. But that was it. And yes everything ulysses says - I was shouting at the TV, like 'OF COURSE THIS HAPPENED! JESUS!!!'
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, 4 August 2020 18:54 (three years ago) link
Alphie did you finish this in the end?
― let them microwave their rice (gyac), Tuesday, 11 August 2020 11:06 (three years ago) link
Yes I finished it last saturday at like 1am or something. Have scrambled thoughts I might put down sometime.
― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 11 August 2020 11:09 (three years ago) link
This just ended in the U.S. last night. Amazing final episode.
― jaymc, Tuesday, 25 August 2020 17:39 (three years ago) link
yeah, it fucked me up and i think about it fairly regularly.
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Tuesday, 25 August 2020 17:43 (three years ago) link
far and away the best show i've seen this year. i love how deeply we got to know arabella, and how the show explained her behavior but never apologized for it. and i appreciated how, after all the things she tried to cope with her assaults, the thing that finally put her on the right path was good old-fashioned talk therapy.
also the soundtrack was cool as fuck.
― i got a homogenic björk wine farmer permabanned (voodoo chili), Wednesday, 16 September 2020 14:06 (three years ago) link
lol as someone for whom talk therapy has helped overall, that was not the conclusion I took from that.
― scampo italiano (gyac), Wednesday, 16 September 2020 14:24 (three years ago) link
idk, bella a clear attitude/outlook attitude shift after that moment that allowed her to step outside herself a bit and be more open with the poeple in her life.
― i got a homogenic björk wine farmer permabanned (voodoo chili), Wednesday, 16 September 2020 14:31 (three years ago) link
It's much more complex and muddier than that, I mean one of things that puts her on the path to getting her book written is literally sitting down and talking about the writing process with her rapist and I don't think many people would recommend that as an approach.
― Matt DC, Wednesday, 16 September 2020 14:34 (three years ago) link
Show is fairly explicit that writing through it is a big part of thinking and rethinking and processing it all.
― scampo italiano (gyac), Wednesday, 16 September 2020 14:35 (three years ago) link
xp oh for sure, the show definitely doesn't posit anything as a panacea, and all three main characters process their assaults and resulting traumas in healthy and (mostly) unhealthy ways. i think i just really liked that scene and how coel's performance shifted afterward.
― i got a homogenic björk wine farmer permabanned (voodoo chili), Wednesday, 16 September 2020 14:38 (three years ago) link
Yeah it's unclear how much of even the penultimate episode actually happens or whether it's part of her own writing process.
― Matt DC, Wednesday, 16 September 2020 14:39 (three years ago) link
I think I liked that it resisted any kind of takeaway. There was some painful processing of experience, but ultimately stuff got done -- that she needed her rapist to take away her writing block I realise quite a brutal expression of what it is to do stuff, sometimes -- life goes on and we keep muddling through the disaster.
― xyzzzz__, Wednesday, 16 September 2020 14:48 (three years ago) link
i think this show will come to define its year which is a hell of a feat for something filmed prior to and without mentioning covid.
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Wednesday, 16 September 2020 15:02 (three years ago) link
I always think this show is called "Allow Me to Destroy You" because of this fairly obscure track from 1981, which I think about every time it comes up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7bOImSiE1A
― Gerneten-flüken cake (jed_), Wednesday, 16 September 2020 22:21 (three years ago) link
But the real title is interesting, nonetheless. I May Destroy You (It's up to me).
― Gerneten-flüken cake (jed_), Wednesday, 16 September 2020 22:23 (three years ago) link
I think there is a lot of delusion in there. People have a go at destruction but they fail at that, or end up being used more than using.
― xyzzzz__, Wednesday, 16 September 2020 22:45 (three years ago) link
i thought it was a comment on how any close personal connection can eventually end in intense pain
― i got a homogenic björk wine farmer permabanned (voodoo chili), Wednesday, 16 September 2020 22:47 (three years ago) link
I May Destroy You (It's not up to me).
― Gerneten-flüken cake (jed_), Wednesday, 16 September 2020 22:55 (three years ago) link
https://open.spotify.com/episode/0arolGdyR8wkSGaawcKHkD?si=KNl5EIyZSf2WrOFNIyK4vQLOuis tHeorux;s lockdown broadcast has returned with michaela as first guest for the 2nd series
― Stevolende, Monday, 30 November 2020 10:25 (three years ago) link
Also available as a podcast: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p089sfrz/episodes/downloads
― huge rant (sic), Monday, 30 November 2020 12:07 (three years ago) link
Forgive the thread spam, but I wanted to note that this show's 2020 season is nominated in the 2020 ILX TV poll:
ILX's Best Television of 2020 Poll / VOTING AND CAMPAIGNING THREAD / Voting Ends After January 29, 2021
If you like this show and you'd like to see it have a good showing in the poll (running in February) all you need to do is submit a ballot including it and your other favorites (3 minimum, 25 maximum, ranked by your favorite to least favorite) to forksclovetofu at gmail. It'll take five minutes; get to it!
― the serious avant-garde universalist right now (forksclovetofu), Thursday, 21 January 2021 19:41 (three years ago) link
Finished this a couple of nights back. Absolutely astonishing really and I can't stop thinking about it, getting flashes of scenes and clips of dialogue wafting up from my subconscious. Current obsessions are the family scene at Arabella's mums, which was so beautiful and heartbreakingly real (she comes out of the bedroom, having discussed her dad's infidelities *and* her rape and not only cuddles her dad but serves him food. I broke down at that point) and the final jump-shot of the roof garden. That could have been a clumsy rendering of the growth metaphor but it totally worked (I love how she undercuts her own metaphor with the whole scene in Susy's office, it's like, 'yes, I know my metaphor is cheesy and look, in other hands, it's totally wanky, what you going to do?').
I've been thinking about the birdsong that presages her visions in the final episode. It sounds vaguely mechanical but also *could* be a nightingale at a push. I've been pondering the significance but can't get much beyond it being a Keats reference (Lethe-wards had sunk or half in love with easeful death). Anyway, what a fucking triumph.
― Vanishing Point (Chinaski), Wednesday, 27 January 2021 09:54 (three years ago) link
Finally got around to this, finished it last night, and nothing to add to the superlatives up thread except more superlatives. It does so many things so well, and goes deep on so many different themes and ideas. Even without more time to process it, I can confidently call it one of the best things I’ve ever seen on TV.
― a man often referred to in the news media as the Duke of Saxony (tipsy mothra), Friday, 2 July 2021 19:20 (two years ago) link
Finally watched this. As good as billed, if not better.
I think it's one of things, now I've seen it, I'm gonna be watching most other shows and thinking "well it's good, but it's not i may destroy you good"
― Chuck_Tatum, Thursday, 22 September 2022 10:40 (one year ago) link
I watched this over the summer and completely agree.
better than billed and it was billed as very very good.
its astonishing that it came out of relatively nowhere, Michela Coel deserves every accolade she got this.
― my opinionation (Hamildan), Thursday, 22 September 2022 14:43 (one year ago) link
Better than Chewing gum so wonder where she will go next.Hope we get to find out before too long.
― Stevolende, Thursday, 22 September 2022 14:58 (one year ago) link