John Zorn: Classic or Dud?

Another question: those three you cite as faves (Torture Garden, Spy Vs. Spy, Spillane) are all from the same general coupla year late '80s span, which is also when Zorn was perhaps at his "popular" peak. That is to say, albums on Elektra/Nonesuch, ads in magazines, that sort of thing. Even "Torture Garden," which was not on a big label, was released the same year as the first Naked City album, so I'm sure some (like me) learned about it by way of that. I'm not sure of your age, but when did you first hear about Zorn, and did it coincide with his period of relative prominence?

I think first heard Zorn maybe my senior year of high school (1998) when I bought Locus Solus based on the review in the Spin guide, maybe? I didn't really like it or get it.

But then I bought the Black Box in college when I was a huge Bungle Guy and liked that a lot

A high school friend bought me the Classic Guide To Strategy Volumes 1 & 2 CD when I was 17 or 18 I think. I thought it was hilarious and fun and mind bending but lost the disc somewhere along the way and just never ventured into Zorn. Daunting discography + I’m not a huge skronky improv head

but I like what I’ve heard of eg Masada and I like watching Naked City/painkiller videos on YouTube

Is Baphomet any good? I cannot stream it anywhere which is strange.

I haven't listened to it yet, but have you heard the other Simulacrum albums? Maybe check those out first if you haven't:

Simulacrum
The True Discoveries of Witches and Demons
Inferno
The Painted Bird
49 Acts Of Unspeakable Depravity In The Abominable Life And Times Of Gilles De Rais
The Garden of Earthly Delights
Beyond Good and Evil - Simulacrum Live

John Zorn’s A Dreamer’s Christmas album is fucking great!! I don’t know jack shit about Mr. Zorn other than that awful Yoko Ono collaboration YouTube video that went viral and of course the fact that he’s released a grand total of about 52 billion albums in his lifetime. But this is great! Just mellow jazzy Christmas music with lots of vibes. Even my wife likes it, and she hates everything!

Crossing over with the Zappa thread (#onethread) that's one of the many things that makes Zorn great. He can be extreme and confrontational and unlistenable, but he's also a talented enough bandleader and composer that, unlike Zappa, he can also release albums that just about anyone would enjoy or appreciate. I once gave Bar Kokhba as a gift to my wife's mom.

Yeah the Xmas album has gotten near daily play at the Eye Open household this year

I want it all on Apple or Spotify. The game albums “Hockey” “Golf” or whatever. EVERYTHING. This is what your oeuvre was made for Sir. Make it happen please.

Maybe he's figured that there's nothing much in it for him to gift his entire back catalogue to some corporate behemoth in exchange for $.0005.

Yeah probably. Somehow I still want what I want though.

Yeah i dunno exactly how the numbers crunch but he seems like hes probably one of the few people around making ok money off of CDs, im sure hes not anxious to change the formula.

But yeah over the years Ive fantasized about some kind of Tzadik-only streaming service, or like a Tzadik app, would totally pay $5 a month for something like that.

I thought the Tzadik catalog was on one streaming service, Tidal or Qobuz or something - but not on Spotify.

Huh...I’m gonna look that up. Never heard of Qobuz before.

Qobuz has one or two other albums that Spotify and Apple don’t have (Spillane abs something else) and Tidal has the same stuff the big two have.

https://assets.boomkat.com/spree/products/727839/large/702397837923_T11_Image.jpg

John Zorn featuring Bill Frisell, Julian Lage and Gyan Riley
Teresa de Ávila

^^

love this

Thanks for the tip! I've almost never heard Frisell play acoustic, and I don't know those other dudes. Though it looks like Gyan Riley is Terry Riley's son?

I thought Julian Lage was famous these days! I didn't know that about Gyan Riley though.

lol, he could be famous, I've just never heard of him!

Yeah, Lage has been around for a while. He's got an album coming out on Blue Note next month that I like. And he's worked with Zorn before, as part of the group Insurrection.

He became famous as a child prodigy, played the Grammys at 12 and all. He's a little fussy but I like his playing well enough. Modern Lore from a few years ago was a nice album and I esp liked him in the Nels Cline 4. This trio did a Zorn album last year called Virtue - is this similar?

yeah very similar, but I think this one has better compositions and is more focused or something.

OK, tighter compositions with more focus was what I hoped for so that sounds promising.

just getting to this now, really loving it. hearing frisell play crisp & clean acoustic like this is a joy

it's quite complex and layered but has a simple beauty to it.

I'm really liking this so far. The compositions do seem tighter. The way that the contrasting ideas in "An Embarrassment of Raptures" are juxtaposed and reconciled is really satisfying. Haven't broken that much down yet but sounds like there's a lot of chromatic mediant movement in various pieces?

From that Perfect Sound Forever interview with Robert Quine, this is maybe the most shocking line:

I've done Coke and Nike commercials with John Zorn.

Read that too fast and thought it said he'd done coke with Zorn, and I immediately thought "no way has John Zorn ever been anywhere near cocaine"

lol

It's harder to picture Zorn doing high-level commercial spec work though.

There was a Sega Genesis commercial that used Naked City, but if Zorn has done other music for commercials (which I don't doubt) he's never publicized it and it probably doesn't sound anything like his music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdoVjrhJn8Y

I want to say those Filmworks collections include a few jingles.

I know someone who took a film class with a producer whose husband was a filmmaker (at the time I think they still lived in the Chicagoland area), and his teacher mentioned that John Zorn scored their first indie feature. Sorry to say, this was before I knew John Zorn's work (and apparently none of her students knew who he was either), but she said they all loved his music and reached out to him. He agreed to do it for NO payment, provided that he retain ownership of the music in terms of the masters, the publishing, etc. I guess he did that a lot, but it's really admirable. I forgot the names of everyone involved with that film (as well as the film's title), but it was a heist film that was shot around Chicago.

I did some searching, and I think the film was probably Thieves Quartet (released in 1993), and the music would be on Filmworks III

https://www.discogs.com/release/457819-John-Zorn-Filmworks-III-1990-1995

Impressive line-up: Zorn had Dave Douglas and Joey Baron with him, and apparently Quine played on one track.

Wish I had known this sooner. I just saw Douglas recently and was able to briefly chat with him before his show. Would've asked him about this, though I'm not sure he would've remembered anything about it.

Filmworks III also has 30+ little things he did for a big ad firm in the early to mid 90s, though obviously no brands are mentioned

Unless “Batman” counts as a brand

I’ve always wanted to make a fan edit of TRESPASS that uses his cues instead of Ry Cooder’s. It probably doesn’t work and Walter Hill may have been correct to drop them, but I love ‘what-ifs’ with rejected scores

Oh ok, I never really delved into the Filmworks records, but it makes sense that they'd contain unused commercial work (though often that's prohibited by contract, wonder if he reworked them or just did it anyway).

You should pick a few to listen to! Lotsa Quine.

Pulled out my copy of Filmworks III and here's JZ's info on those tracks.

I have a very special relationship with the commercial house of Weiden and Kennedy – when they need something off-the-wall, they call me. My deal is simple, but unheard of in the commercial music field. I never do demos – and I never "redo" anything. I do the job once – I do it the way I want – and I get paid whether they use the music or not. Hardly the description of a commercial sellout. Weiden and Kennedy is probably the only advertising firm who would do such a thing. Most commercial houses find it impossible to trust an artist in this way, but Weiden and Kennedy has rpoved that one can work in the world of advertising and still retain one's integrity and creativity.

I wish I could go into some details on these sessions, because the stories are priceless (you just can't make this stuff up). But needless to say scoring the spot "FRANCE" directed by GODARD was a particular high point. The Brooklyn cheer (RAZZ) you hear at the end of the spot was visually synched with the product shot, and I had to perform it myself (Arto didn't want to insult the client and refused to do it).

For legal reasons I can't mention the products and various companies that these spots were created for, but these sessions have been some of the most relaxed, enjoyable times I've had in a recording studio. The musicians and I always have a ball, and I think that comes across in the music.

Two people should be singled out on these tracks – ROBERT QUINE, who does some of his best playing on many of these short TV spots and has been a vital member of these groupings since my very first commercial sessions – recording engineer/sing-songwriter/synclavier genius JASON BAKER, whose easy going manner, indefatigable energy, unflagging focus and precise ear for detail makes working in the studio a pure pleasure – even when you're surrounded by "music editors," "clients" and "creatives."

Bob Quine has one of the most beautiful guitar sounds in the world, and his compelling comping patterns and solos are never less than perfect. He's often mixed down, or even out (!) of many of the pop/rock projects he usually works on, but here you can experience the savage bite of his "nasty tone" and the sensuous warmth of his "surf sound" up close and personal.

I hope you have as much fun listening to this music as we had recording it.

Very cool, thank you!

(btw how are you all listening to Tzadiks these days...cds?)

There's some stuff on youtube -- I've enjoyed the Hermetic Organ tracks I could find. Otherwise I really just relisten to what I have ripped from CDs to computer, older stuff. I quit trying to keep up with his output about 20 yrs ago so I'm not too familiar with Dreamers, Simulacrum, etc.

Zorn's doing another big ol' birthday thing here in SF across multiple nights, Great American instead of the Chapel this time:

https://gamh.com/shows-zorn70

Featuring John Zorn, Laurie Anderson, Bill Frisell, Julian Lage, Fred Frith, Mike Patton, John Medeski, Dave Lombardo, Trevor Dunn, Petra Haden, Trey Spruance, Kenny Wollesen, Brian Marsella, Gyan Riley, Cyro Baptista, Chris Otto, Sae Hashimoto, Steve Gosling, Jorge Roeder, WIlliam Winant, Ikue Mori, Ches Smith among many, many others …
This series will feature two world premiere performances, several of Zorn’s best loved and most celebrated ensembles as well as some of his latest projects, a unique solo organ recital at Grace Cathedral and a very special COBRA performance, curated especially for San Francisco.

The Grace Cathedral event intrigues.

no Eye, no credibility (j/k)

Shitty time to be unemployed :(

Just checked and realized I'll be out of town that weekend (Labor Day, seeing my folks) but I might be able to go for the Laurie Anderson/Frizell/Zorn combo night. Saw Anderson and Zorn with Terry Riley at that earlier set of shows, a good night out.

i saw JZ last night doing a midnight improvisation on the organ in the basilica in minneapolis.

if he's playing organ in a town near you, my advice is to go!

He doesn't exactly tour or even post live dates, does he?

I dunno about "tour" but he just did this in SF and it was definitely posted in advance: https://gamh.com/shows-zorn70/

Caught one of the Anderson-Frisell shows, was good stuff. Wish Frisell had solo'd more, he was sort of excessively humble and supportive.

But see, why would I have even thought to look at the GAMH site to see that that cool series was even happening?

Anyway, looks like his Facebook page (or a Facebook page) is pretty active with, well, activity, so maybe I should check that out more often.