Why have half the black metal threads on ILM been revived at the same time?

not to downplay anything but tbh at this point in American metal I think the righteous now outnumber the nazis (or even just the vaguely o_0) by a fair margin

how do we deradicalise these freaks

We force-feed them Folklore until they vote for Joe Biden.

black metal matters

this might make me cap'n save a BM but whatever, ime(stimation) very little of the currently existent white supremacy / anti-semitism / xenophobia etc seems to be coming from new acts, much more often they're offshoots of long-established degenerates who have admittedly been humored (and in some cases revered) for far too long. more of the vital metal being made is coming from a genuine left-wing perspective than probably ever before. the stigma is definitely justified but I am hopeful the fash will be largely stomped out of BM in the coming years

Yep, especially in North America, as you pointed out in your previous post.

I mean, that's fine on the one hand and there's a good part of me that is sympathetic to and interested in the sonic palette associated with black metal but on the other hand if a bunch of self-proclaimed left-leaning designers decided to incorporate the Confederate flag into their clothing, I would question very strongly what identification they were making with that pattern, what they felt they were promoting/propagating with that artistic choice, and what the consumers buying it felt they were promoting/propagating, particularly if those same consumers said things like "I don't agree with everything the Confederacy did but they had a lot of influence on the South and you have to admit their uniforms and iconography are great"

That's… not a good comparison, sorry.

White supremacy was never embedded into the very sound of black metal from the get-go. Unlike, say, anti-Christianity.

You guys can continue to tell yourselves this but that doesn't make it true.

What do you make of this guy?

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2018/may/22/zeal-ardor-black-metal-bluesman-brands-fans

DJP is on record as a Z&A nonfan iirc

Ah, fair enough.

this might make me cap'n save a BM but whatever, ime(stimation) very little of the currently existent white supremacy / anti-semitism / xenophobia etc seems to be coming from new acts, much more often they're offshoots of long-established degenerates who have admittedly been humored (and in some cases revered) for far too long. more of the vital metal being made is coming from a genuine left-wing perspective than probably ever before. the stigma is definitely justified but I am hopeful the fash will be largely stomped out of BM in the coming years

― the quar on drugs (Simon H.), Monday, July 27, 2020 10:09 AM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

or...maybe the younger dudes are just smarter and cannier about what they let slip?

Like I know for a fact Tanner from press darlings Obsequiae (maybe they aren't black metal? Folk metal? Narnian?) has uhhhh less than progressive political views to say the least

if the Led Zep and Ice Cube discourse(s) have taught us anything, and to paraphrase bill callahan, all genres have a past they don't care to mention. modern BM bands are at least making a go of countering it and don't deserve any more side-eye than anyone else for doing so. especially as there's no fucking money in it.

Like I know for a fact Tanner from press darlings Obsequiae (maybe they aren't black metal? Folk metal? Narnian?) has uhhhh less than progressive political views to say the least

if they're afraid to share their views, that's a mark of progress too! I bet a lot of prominent artists have dodgy views they're canny enough to stfu about

Black Metal musician “Tanner”.

i am fairly confident that the majority of the BM bands i like currently are pretty unambiguously progressive and i know for a fact that at least one of them (jute gyte) recently raised over $1500 for naacp legal funds

Like I know for a fact Tanner from press darlings Obsequiae (maybe they aren't black metal? Folk metal? Narnian?) has uhhhh less than progressive political views to say the least

Huh, they contributed to that anti-racist comp I linked to upthread (not saying I don't believe you btw).

And if we're going to talk about black metal's purported DNA, I don't think Venom has ever stood for racism in any shape or form. Correct me if I'm wrong.

i get where you're coming from, djp. idk. it's a hard thing. i respect you a lot and i acknowledge the damage black metal has done and continues to do, and i still listen to a fair amount of black metal. if you're asking for me to quit talking about black metal on this board, well, what you're asking for is fair and reasonable and i can't, personally, do it. that's all i can tell you.

Irreconcilable cultural differences and/or misunderstandings are probably at play here too, but I do respect your stance, DJP.

if they're afraid to share their views, that's a mark of progress too! I bet a lot of prominent artists have dodgy views they're canny enough to stfu about

― the quar on drugs (Simon H.), Monday, July 27, 2020 11:32 AM (five seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink

in that case hats off to black metal well done lads!

pomenitul -

He's been a member of the neofolk band Blood and Sun: http://www.citypages.com/music/blood-and-sun-life-is-a-dangerous-thing-6650548

here's the book on them

Luke Tromiczak of "neofolk" band Blood And Sun is a known fascist affiliate and cosplay artist who likes dressing as a member of the SA. pic.twitter.com/tFxAD6fMGS

— Sam Tyler (@RadNewsMedia) December 16, 2016

I have more firsthand accounts from a friend of mine who used to be in Obsequiae not for ILX

:(

For the record, I did not say "stop talking about black metal". I asked "Why have so many black metal threads been revived all at once, particularly now?" and I said why I was asking, which is that it feels pointedly hostile given both what the black metal scene started as, the elements that still exist within it, and what's currently happening in the wider cultural perspective.

I mean, the Zeal and Ardor guy started his project because someone on Reddit dared him to make a mashup of "black metal" and "nigger music", for fuck's sake.

the answer to your original question is 'neanderthal got drunk' fyi

Sorry, 4chan not Reddit

I mean, the Zeal and Ardor guy started his project because someone on Reddit dared him to make a mashup of "black metal" and "nigger music", for fuck's sake.

― shout-out to his family (DJP)

yeah, i don't know what the hell he was doing on 4chan! z&a definitely does come out of an extremely toxic place that its frontman was embedded in.

sorry for misreading what you were saying. i struggle myself trying to figure out whether certain people say certain things out of ignorance or hostility, and whether it even matters (to which, more and more, the answer i'm reaching is "no").

just asking: does gagneux being himself black alter how repellent the z&a creation-legend is, iyo?

...

maybe the revivalist was inspired by the time I recently revived a half dozen threads about the band The Police as an homage to ZS/Karl Malone's #onethread concept

What I find striking about Z&A is that he specifically took up that heinous challenge in order to turn it against the 4channers: 'The ultimate fuck-you is actually making something good out of such a silly suggestion' (link).

This recent piece of his, re: George Floyd, is also quite interesting:

https://www.kerrang.com/features/zeal-ardors-manuel-gagneux-we-need-to-boringly-homogenise-rather-than-spectacularly-separate/

Paul Celan's entire oeuvre is predicated on the notion that poetry is still possible for a Jewish Holocaust survivor whose mother tongue happens to be German, a language that 'had to pass through its own answerlessness, pass through frightful muting, pass through the thousand darknesses of deathbringing speech'.

must be a very edifying thread for DJP

sigh. sorry, djp. you don't deserve to be lectured like this. what you're saying is right and authentic.

Ok, then let's abandon the possibility of dialogue like we always do.

it's horrible when you start a thread and people reply to it

I asked "Why have so many black metal threads been revived all at once, particularly now?" and I said why I was asking, which is that it feels pointedly hostile given both what the black metal scene started as, the elements that still exist within it, and what's currently happening in the wider cultural perspective.

Sorry, but this generalization equating all black metal with white supremacy is as daft as equating all hip hop and grime with misogyny, homophobia and anti-Semitism.
Plus you know damn fine well neanderthal isn't racist and neither are the metal fans on ilm.

this is really cool to see a bunch of metal fans ganging up on a POC for bringing up concerns about racism

Sorry, but this generalization equating all black metal with white supremacy is as daft as equating all hip hop and grime with misogyny, homophobia and anti-Semitism.

as a hip hop fan for years and years, these things are enormous problems within hip hop and have been for decades, and with Jay Electronic and Wiley this week we've seen how deeply embedded they are so I'm not sure what point you're making

Plus you know damn fine well neanderthal isn't racist and neither are the metal fans on ilm.

i'm glad we've learned absolutely nothing about whiteness and ingrained racism in the last few months.

Everyone has racism in them period

ganging up on a POC for bringing up concerns about racism

Is this really what we're doing? Have any of us dismissed the obvious ubiquity of racist elements within the black metal scene? The rolling metal threads are rife with discussions about this.

Sorry, but this generalization equating all black metal with white supremacy is as daft as equating all hip hop and grime with misogyny, homophobia and anti-Semitism.

You're right. That's why my position on black metal is and will forever remain NTPO - Nazi Till Proven Otherwise. I'm perfectly willing to accept proof that a given black metal band is not NS, but I go in assuming that they are. Over the last ~30 years, enough black metal bands have been exposed as Nazis, white nationalists, or whatever term you choose to apply that for a new band to emerge working in that style implies that they're at a minimum, OK with tying themselves to the genre despite its sketchy history. So...NTPO.

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/1999/black-metal-spreads-neo-nazi-hate-message

maybe the Southern Poverty Law Center can get around to updating this 20-year-old article if they have nothing better to do

idk people are being defensive when they don't need to be?

The rolling metal threads are rife with discussions about this.

yup, much as issues of abuse/cancellation are inevitably a recurring part of all the rolling emo threads.

and the defensiveness comes across as attacking DJP -- like, this is kinda textbook white fragility ... i think?

yeah i have no idea how this isn't evident how this is coming across

If I read them correctly, DJP seems to argue that the genre of BM is racist/white supremacist from the get-go, i.e. that this is (unalteringly) built into the DNA of the genre, so to speak. Quite clearly, that is something not everyone would agree on (I don’t think I do, although I can see certain points in favour of it), but at least it is a question which could give rise to an interesting discussion and perhaps take this thread in a more constructive direction (unless it has been hashed out a million times before - I don’t think I’ve seen it done exactly like this)

It’s worth noting (yet again) that not all of us are American or even from countries with an imperialist/colonialist past, which is bound to have a bearing on our approach to these questions.

(I suppose Neanderthal - although he is not here - has a certain right to be defensive, given the original post - xpost)

(please use he/him for me)

Sure, will do. Sorry. Wasn’t quite sure.

It’s worth noting (yet again) that not all of us are American or even from countries with an imperialist/colonialist past, which is bound to have a bearing on our approach to these questions.

― pomenitul, Monday, July 27, 2020 12:40 PM (four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

neither were many of the most prominent national socialist black metal artists iirc

yeah i have no idea how this isn't evident how this is coming across

I for one am shocked that white people are replying to a thread about black metal. did no one consider the optics?!

cap'n save a BM

Should’ve added ‘wealthy’.

xp

whatever it's just a continuation of #onethread where one corner of ILX yells at the other until we all get depressed, mad or terminally snarky (or some combo thereof)

#onestrugglesession

FPd myself for talking about The ILX Discourse, the most boring topic yet known to humans, sorry everyone

no the most boring topic is The Beatles

T/S: The ILX Discourse vs. Pizza

I for one am shocked that white people are replying to a thread about black metal. did no one consider the optics?!

― the quar on drugs (Simon H.), Monday, July 27, 2020 10:51 AM (thirteen minutes ago)

It's not the fact that you and the other white ppl taking your position are replying -- it's the way in which you are replying ...

xp - I would rather have more polls about The ILX Discourse than about pizza ... I feel like we've polled everything there is to poll about pizza

It's not the fact that you and the other white ppl taking your position are replying -- it's the way in which you are replying ...

I mean I guess I could take a stab at "proving" I'm not actually feeling defensive on the internet but my records show no one has ever actually succeeded at doing this

five black metal threads have 1-2 new answers, other than the one where we talk about how racist emperor and darkthrone were. not exactly a sea change

― the quar on drugs (Simon H.), Monday, July 27, 2020 7:46 AM (three hours ago)

like, I can see this post being intended as sympathetic to DJP, but it also reads as defensive / a bit dismissive ...

there's only one person who is really qualified to answer this question and that's the guy who revived all the threads

that's true. Neanderthal, you had a message for us?

To be clear, "Neanderthal got drunk" does answer my question

xp crut: ilx - where being qualified to answer questions is not a criterion for participating in the discourse

I started this thread because, for what I hope would be obvious reasons, my first reaction upon seeing what felt like a wall o' black metal wasn't "oh, let me see what is happening on each of these threads"; it was "ugh gross", particularly after going onto the "best original black metal band" thread and seeing the collective handwaving we all participated in re: what was going on with those bands as they were building their canon. The defensive responses were expected because they always happen no matter how gently the topic is broached, which is a large part of why I didn't bother to be gentle about it.

It’s worth noting (yet again) that not all of us are American or even from countries with an imperialist/colonialist past, which is bound to have a bearing on our approach to these questions.

― pomenitul, Monday, July 27, 2020 10:40 AM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

can i just say i hate this, literally every single time this sentiment gets posted, i fucking hate it

Suit yourself.

I also get triggered when I read Russian apologist tankie bullshit on ILX, but what are you gonna do, context trumps all.

It’s worth noting (yet again) that not all of us are American or even from countries with an imperialist/colonialist past, which is bound to have a bearing on our approach to these questions.

― pomenitul, Monday, July 27, 2020 12:40 PM (four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

neither were many of the most prominent national socialist black metal artists iirc

― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, July 27, 2020 1:47 PM bookmarkflaglink

I then wrote that I should've added 'wealthy'.

huh?

i.e. 'or even from wealthy countries or countries with an imperialist/colonialist past' – sorry, that wasn't entirely clear.

this is a good one to let go

― lol tea partiers and their fat fingers (HI DERE), Monday, November 1, 2010 10:11 AM (nine years ago)

is Norway not wealthy or imperialist enough

think pom's point is that he is from romania (poor country that never did much colonising, although WAS a central power #neverforget ;D) but BM is from wealthy, aristocratic norway, but tbh i sort of think that a lot of the good BM right now is rightly interrogating questions of privilege and origin. yeah there are still racists in the scene and yeah there always have been but the same can be said for a lot of scenes and i don't believe white supremacy is encoded into BM. and tbh not even 90's norwegian BM was all done by white kids anyway - for example yusuf parvez aka dodheimsgard was there from close to the outset and he's still making amazing music now and then

shit it was bulgaria that was a central power, sorry. ok romania completely clear haha

no wait i've just checked world war 2. uh-oh

*yusaf parvez even

Unperson did this nice interview with Iranian Zoroastrian BM artist Vizaresa, who records as the (v good) one-man band Akvan: https://daily.bandcamp.com/features/akvan-interview

there's only one person who is really qualified to answer this question and that's the guy who revived all the threads

― trapped out the barndo (crüt), Monday, July 27, 2020 2:16 PM bookmarkflaglink

I don't have an explanation other than "I am bored and lonely due to sheltering in place and spend a lot of time listening to music, so I often bump threads or post things that I feel like talking about" because I try to avoid Facebook before bed and I just want to chat with people. last night, I just so happened to be listening to black metal albums for the first time in eons, which lead me to start searching for mentions of these albums or bands in threads to look at discussion, possibly even find a few other reccs, and then wound up bumping the threads while I was in them, either due to a quote, or do to just wanting to post on the album.

There was definitely no underlying theme in my reviving multiple posts other than my usual "over-enthusiastic" schtick, though I can see how the optics look, especially after reading OP. But I didn't intend to send any kind of message like that, or be insensitive - but I know intent doesn't really matter, so I apologize, DJP. I don't want to make anybody feel uncomfortable posting here or cause duress.

romania completely clear

Not 'completely clear' at all – antisemitism and anti-Roma sentiment in particular are indelible stains upon our history – but different enough from the usual (mainly Western) imperialist suspects to merit a less reductive lens than that afforded by American discourses on race, which have their limits when applied beyond the US's borders. Contemporary American (and British) discourses on the relationship between aesthetics and politics also tend to favour the latter almost systematically, and I for one am uncomfortable with that.

xpost also it was a fair question for DJP to ask

sarahell and m@tt otm as well.