Sorry for the crosstalk, breaking this up into multiple posts. So I am... someone who Intersectionalists could make a hearty alphabet soup out of (though I'd prefer if they didn't). I've been bullied, harassed, intimidated. I will never not be afraid of bullies.
But before all of that, In my earliest memories, I was persecuted by an oppressive regime.
The thing that scares me about Intersectionalism, going back to that 1-2-3 post of j.'s and the 3 bit in particular. Is what is going to happen to the 'different' people who just fall between the cracks, the socially inept, the nerds and weirdos, the benevolent eccentrics who do not have identity groups to advocate for their needs. Who currently are permitted, ultimately -if perhaps not easily or painlessly- to go their own way without persecution, when we are no longer "individuals". When the demands for solidarity, for... what did the Harper's letter call it? "Ideological conformity"? have eclipsed our individuality. The freedom to not belong.
And I am hoping to be reassured that this concern is illegitimate.
― Deflatormouse, Monday, 13 July 2020 10:00 (three years ago) link
yes, that's right - i told you to die why haven't you died yet
― imago, Monday, 13 July 2020 10:00 (three years ago) link
you are entirely useless you offer nothing you like nothing you bring nothing you are a chasm of shit
― imago, Monday, 13 July 2020 10:02 (three years ago) link
"idk what my actual point is here other than that once again i'm rattled"
Poor LJ you don't have a point, don't worry yourself thinking you did. At least j. has read a few books.
― xyzzzz__, Monday, 13 July 2020 10:03 (three years ago) link
go to hell
― imago, Monday, 13 July 2020 10:03 (three years ago) link
you're a monster
― imago, Monday, 13 July 2020 10:04 (three years ago) link
LJ please.
― scampos mentis (gyac), Monday, 13 July 2020 10:04 (three years ago) link
Haha!
― xyzzzz__, Monday, 13 July 2020 10:05 (three years ago) link
if the person you’re “debating” won’t let the conversation move past ‘well actually I think it should be called egalitarianism’. Which is the whole reason that tactic is employed in the first place.― scampos mentis (gyac), Monday, 13 July 2020 bookmarkflaglinkLiberalism is full of performers with what they think are clever debating tactics. People there solely to suck the air out of the room. This thing that is someone's life is just not that important to them. Then they vote Lib Dem or Green in an election and allow the Tory in. Oops, didn't mean that! The Observer or this tactical app told me this is what I should do. It kills people.
― scampos mentis (gyac), Monday, 13 July 2020 10:06 (three years ago) link
that cox tweet was fake fyi /capnsaveacox
― neith moon (ledge), Monday, 13 July 2020 10:09 (three years ago) link
Come back from space Brian, have you seen the mess you've left behind?
― anvil, Monday, 13 July 2020 10:12 (three years ago) link
― Deflatormouse, Monday, 13 July 2020 10:00 (ten minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
genuinely, apologies for riding roughshod over your valuable train of thought with my own personal bs
coalition of weirdos unite :)
― imago, Monday, 13 July 2020 10:12 (three years ago) link
he was hacked by an asteroid
i have a sinking feeling that people are using 'liberal' to mean extremely different things again, depending on whether they are posting in the UK/europe (liberal=free-marketeer) or in the US (nominally left-of-center NPR-style political views)
kate's central point, that the 'rational public sphere' of which the internet (discord, ilx, what have you) is supposedly the apotheosis ('nobody knows you're a dog') has since its inception been a way of silencing and ignoring voices and bodies that have a 'positivity' - a positivity carefully cultivated through propaganda, commercial exchange, cultural production, etc - that marks them out as non-standard. this goes back to habermas (and probably further). it's just not enough to posit a public sphere in which status distinctions can simply be bracketed and set aside and now we're equal - because positing isn't enough to make it so. it frankly works as an alibi rather than a liberation project.
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Monday, 13 July 2020 10:15 (three years ago) link
gyac - I don't know of that twitter thread. I'm referring to the Observer running their tactical options the weekend before and LJ going on about tactical voting, that kind of thing, despite voting for Corbyn with a heavy heart. The cunt couldn't wait for him to go.
I think it's very similar in the way liberals just wreck shit when they think they are being clever with debating tactics or apps etc.
― xyzzzz__, Monday, 13 July 2020 10:16 (three years ago) link
i always supported corbyn and my vote was not with a heavy heart. i talked about tactical voting in precisely one constituency where the lib dems were clearly 2nd behind the tories in polling
― imago, Monday, 13 July 2020 10:18 (three years ago) link
i had misgivings about some of corbyn's presentation, which was at times weak, but i overwhelmingly agreed with his policy platform and thought he seemed like a stand-up human being
it is possible to be a liberal and in favour of corbyn. coherent even. corbyn was pushign a classic social democrat platform - in other words, left-liberal
― imago, Monday, 13 July 2020 10:19 (three years ago) link
btw i meant the alibi part went back to habermas (at least) not the silencing, obv!!
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Monday, 13 July 2020 10:21 (three years ago) link
"i always supported corbyn and my vote was not with a heavy heart"
Put this show on for somebody else LJ.
― xyzzzz__, Monday, 13 July 2020 10:43 (three years ago) link
Alphie would you ever cop yourself on, it adds less than nothing to the thread and we already have a thread to mess up with this.
― scampos mentis (gyac), Monday, 13 July 2020 11:02 (three years ago) link
LJ posted a thick as pigshit post on All Lives Matter, you picked up on it too, but yes I know nobody wants to read a tantrum from the only clever liberal.
― xyzzzz__, Monday, 13 July 2020 11:11 (three years ago) link
A liberal might and probably should think that all lives matter, but it's coded by now as revanchist anti-BLM language, so no liberal aware of this would be wise to say it, especially as a slogan.
― imago, Monday, 13 July 2020 11:12 (three years ago) link
are you adding 'wilfully obtuse as fuck' to your charge sheet m8
― imago, Monday, 13 July 2020 11:13 (three years ago) link
Yeah that one! xp
― xyzzzz__, Monday, 13 July 2020 11:13 (three years ago) link
Stopping posting it, it doesn't get any better
― xyzzzz__, Monday, 13 July 2020 11:14 (three years ago) link
perhaps you will kindly explain to the gathered crowd what is thick as pigshit about it
― imago, Monday, 13 July 2020 11:14 (three years ago) link
All done m8
― xyzzzz__, Monday, 13 July 2020 11:16 (three years ago) link
White people are exhausting
― shout-out to his family (DJP), Monday, 13 July 2020 11:16 (three years ago) link
Lol
― Tōne Locatelli Romano (PBKR), Monday, 13 July 2020 11:26 (three years ago) link
need an opposite of "flag"
― Mein Skampf (Noodle Vague), Monday, 13 July 2020 11:30 (three years ago) link
NOT ALL WHITE PEOPLE, DANMY POSTS ABOUT NEOPRAGMATISM ARE 100% CHILL
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Monday, 13 July 2020 11:32 (three years ago) link
and 25% grammatically sound
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Monday, 13 July 2020 11:33 (three years ago) link
white people have exhausted me this year
― form of mouth device (Autumn Almanac), Monday, 13 July 2020 11:36 (three years ago) link
Also not wise to assume everyone is white.
― The Fields o' Fat Henry (Tom D.), Monday, 13 July 2020 11:44 (three years ago) link
UK (liberal = smug middle class centrist who pretends to believe the left and the right are as bad each other while climbing into bed with the right at the drop of a hat)
― The Fields o' Fat Henry (Tom D.), Monday, 13 July 2020 11:50 (three years ago) link
Thanks for the post about Derrida, treeship. I admit that I haven't read as much theory, in particular Derrida, as I would like, but that's neither here nor there.
I'd broadly write that I actually agree with much of what you wrote, but that at this juncture, I am willing and in fact wanting to be away with the language of "western liberal democracy" as signpost because of those very real, deadly histories that continue to result from its promulgation. In my estimation, the limited humanism of western liberal democracy-- limited because of those violences and also limited due to the most obvious fact that people are still arguing over whether trans and black lives matter-- is what I hold onto most, but as an ideal that could be expanded. That is, I believe the biggest problem with western liberal democracy is that it's placed too many people outside the realm of the human, thus irrevocably delegitimizing itself; given where we are, one possible way of expanding the human community might be doing away with vaunted ideals unacted upon or ignored in western liberal democracy, and instead moving toward verbiage that actually makes sense. In that way, much of what I think I object to is the reliance on terms in which the cleavage between the signifier and signified is so deep and troubling that it poisons the sign, which in this case is being used to promulgate a massive con that is actively killing people. It's the con that I am opposed to-- not necessarily the vaunted ideals that might actually result from a true western liberal democracy.
Haven't had coffee, sorry if that was mush.
― blue light or electric light (the table is the table), Monday, 13 July 2020 11:51 (three years ago) link
Yeah, I didn't think Thatcher was considered a liberal in the UK (except maybe in the academic sense in which she and Reagan are both 'neoliberal')?
― Feel a million filaments (Sund4r), Monday, 13 July 2020 12:19 (three years ago) link
xp
I don't understand half this stuff
trans women are women
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 13 July 2020 12:33 (three years ago) link
otm
― form of mouth device (Autumn Almanac), Monday, 13 July 2020 12:33 (three years ago) link
hard agree with both statements
― k*r*n koltrane (Simon H.), Monday, 13 July 2020 12:39 (three years ago) link
A 'classic Liberal' maybe. Non-classic liberals in the UK are just squeamish Tories.
― The Fields o' Fat Henry (Tom D.), Monday, 13 July 2020 12:47 (three years ago) link
Jordan Peterson calls himself a classic liberal too. I think most English speakers use "liberal" to mean "vaguely centre-left" in everyday lay usage at this point? Maybe Aus/NZ are different?
― Feel a million filaments (Sund4r), Monday, 13 July 2020 12:57 (three years ago) link
This 'classical liberal' thing is something of a reprise no, only really back in use over the last 8-12 years or so? And something of an affectation
― anvil, Monday, 13 July 2020 13:00 (three years ago) link
ums otm. People that want to make this complicated have an agenda.
― Tōne Locatelli Romano (PBKR), Monday, 13 July 2020 13:02 (three years ago) link
Libertarians have been saying it as long as I can remember.
― Feel a million filaments (Sund4r), Monday, 13 July 2020 13:03 (three years ago) link
Thats true, but wasn't there something of a branding exercise a decade or so back, when this term started to come back into vogue?
― anvil, Monday, 13 July 2020 13:05 (three years ago) link
maybe as a replacement for 'Libertarian' because they wanted to look more intellectual?
― anvil, Monday, 13 July 2020 13:06 (three years ago) link
And with a more respectable historical basis than Ayn Rand.
― The Fields o' Fat Henry (Tom D.), Monday, 13 July 2020 13:07 (three years ago) link