love* in the time of plague (and by love* i mean brexit* and other dreary matters of uk politics)

xp

Jim - have you tried reading?

― xyzzzz__, Thursday, June 25, 2020 12:10 PM (four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

the Israeli secret services taught this specific kneeling on the head technique is peake's specific claim. this isn't supported anywhere. don't come the cunt with me

saying something in the vicinity of the truth doesn't make it true

Idk user wins, it doesn’t take a big brane genius to wonder why US police departments are taking policing training from Israeli units employing counter terrorism tactics, or even why an Irish-Mancunian might ping off the history of militarised police tactics being exported across borders to subjugate undesirables. I mean, call it my bias or upbringing or what have you, but that’s where my mind. Still, I’m glad it’s given people looking in on this thread some material to be snide about in others, and thankfully antisemitism has been sent packing by the noble Brits. As usual.

I think that if you accept the story that Israeli security have trained US police departments the question of whether they taught them that specific move becomes trivial at best - surely no one is suggesting that the current anger at the US police is exclusively, or even mostly, about them using this move? The point is about collaboration between these two organisations, period.

Likewise I don't see anything in Peake's statement that suggests she thinks US police wouldn't be able to brutalize the black population without help, or indeed that Israel is "behind" US police brutality; she was talking about structural racism on a global scale and how oppressive forces collaborate with each other, not casting one as the puppet of the other.

It's an interview where I guess MP is promoting something and being asked about politics and it's the thing of saying something in a compressed way that she read and didn't fact-check all the way through so it ends up being perhaps not a whole truth to the nth degree, but she seems to be making a point of global violence against minorities at this time and using this factoid to make further connections. I don't see the problem and the knee manoeuvre is besides the point xp

i did already kind of touch on this upthread but that was hours ago

Post by scampos mentis (gyac) from love* in the time of plague (and by love* i mean brexit* and other dreary matters of uk politics) on ILX - love* in the time of plague (and by love* i mean brexit* and other dreary matters of uk politics)

Sigh. Quote from a recent lrb piece about policing in NI.

Not exactly irrelevant to point out that police brutality is exported and practices shared worldwide. US police definitely took interest in the things that were considered acceptable for Catholic citizens in Northern Ireland, after all.

The rubber bullets that US police officers have been firing so freely were initially designed for use by the British security forces in Northern Ireland, where they killed 17 people. RUC patrols carried weapons, wore flak jackets and drove around in armour-plated vehicles, foreshadowing the militarisation of US policing.

Yeah gyac and others have made the broader point about the global exchange in exciting new police brutality techniques in a much better way than Peake did.

I wonder whether its specifically the use of the phrase "secret service" that got my crank radar up this morning (like, we're they even trained by the Israeli secret service as opposed to the Israeli army or police? Or even the US army?) Once you start making explicit secret service links you're getting perilously close to dodgy shadowy conspiracy territory.

She stopped short of saying Mossad at least.

yeah it’s been better explored here than elsewhere: i guess another way to look at it is

1) maxine peake interview where she shared what she thought was a reasonable view about how heavily militarised societies commercially help each other with techniques and mechanisms for oppression. *really* doesn’t help to single out israel tho. US police force is known for importing new military technologies (like chokeholds, like tanks) because it is overfunded, and because the US military would like to sell legacy gear and the police force is a good customer. israel as a militarised space is an obvious commercial partner in this, as is presumably russia and other professional law and order and military forces

2) sense or otherwise of sharing article which even mentions israel on social media by a member of the shadow cabinet perceived, rightly or wrongly, to be aligned with AS vulnerability on the Corbyn wing.

Think that’s understandable, but definitely more suggestive imo of an undereducated view on the matter (though ofc intent and unconscious racism are often mutually exclusive, so).

Yeah I think that making the point that systemic racism is global is not the same as “Jews did George floyd” but there is a thing about certain leftists immediately reaching for Israel that we all will have encountered - still think the clarification should be enough. I’d feel better if I thought this “zero tolerance” will be applied consistently

xp point 2 is extremely concerning, esp in context of upcoming annexation. So if Corbyn says something (which he will) and if Starmer faces cries to expel him (which he will), then where’s the option to deescalate?

yes to both gyac and wins. i think it’s a mixture between the fact we’re trying to manage good faith analysis (what is true here?) in a bad faith space (what is pragmatic here?). this leads to all sorts of tensions of analysis even where people are trying to comprehend what’s gone on in a good faith and honest way

(xp) Don't put ideas in his head (Starmer's that is)

Also people on the left are generally on board with the idea that otherwise well-meaning people can casually or unthinkingly say low-key racist or sexist things even when they'd be horrified to be thought of as either. I don't think it benefits anyone to bat away similar incidents of antisemitism because the person speaking happens to be on the left - these conversations need to happen in the open and a witch hunt mentality works against that because people just get defensive.

xp point 2 is extremely concerning, esp in context of upcoming annexation. So if Corbyn says something (which he will) and if Starmer faces cries to expel him (which he will), then where’s the option to deescalate?

RIP bournemouth

Starmer needs the left and BAMEs votes. But it does need organisation of the left as a group, and that isn't currently there.

xp point 2 is extremely concerning, esp in context of upcoming annexation. So if Corbyn says something (which he will) and if Starmer faces cries to expel him (which he will), then where’s the option to deescalate?

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-us-police-training-end-knee-neck-protests

how can anyone not be terminally disillusioned with this disingenuous, tired old charade of never-ending bullshit from all sides but mostly from right-wing media goons who've somehow captured the voice of reason role and who dictate the policies of every major political party right now

fuck this. four years until an election, the uk is falling apart, there is anger and energy right now, do something.

In terms of organisation an example iirc 100 mosques threatened to abstain from voting Labour. Starmer will almost certainly be confronted with Kashmir xp

Which he’s already been weak and shit on. Fuck him, don’t care anymore.

Yes, but again he will need to turn that one around. That's my point.

A huge part of the right-wing motivation for pushing this line is the disengagement of British Muslims from the political process, both in the sense of using past criticism of Israel as a bar on specific Muslims being selected as elected officials (dossiers collated on activists going back to college social media, vast numbers of vexatious complaints designed to hold up / stop appointments, etc) and in the sense of ensuring that ‘courting Muslim votes’, used time and again against the Corbyn wing, is seen as inherently suspicious and disreputable.There’s no way Starmer’s going to square that circle.

been wondering whether active opposition to labour in order to force these ghouls out might not be the best option at this point

Calmly posting as Lab get 30% in four years time

Please. You’re waiting for the full weight of the DPP legacy, real and false, to drop. Interesting Starmzy was soft on actual Tory frontbenchers spreading far right videos about him though, even more so today.

I can’t imagine who they’re going to get in for Education. Anyone from the left is going to be undermined immediately and will know it, anyone from the right is going to be viewed with enormous suspicion by teachers off the bat. They’re going to have to find the most perfectly calibrated nobody.

That's a soft left speciality

about 100 Labour MPs shout "hold my beer" in unison

xxp

someone with J k Rowling energy, but more tory!

I posted the 30% as a joke btw. Given what's coming in terms of covid and Brexit and a potential climate related event thrown in for good measure they could turn to the softest boy in a suit as a last attempt to rescue this sham of a system.

This tweet is still up https://t.co/DKyrZJaxKo

— Your Mum says Black Lives Matter (@judeinlondon2) June 25, 2020

nothing to see like, just a Hitler supporter who refused to employ Jews or Catholics and wished the holocaust had reached Brooklyn. Who got a statue built recently and the current Shadow Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster hasn't yet said this is a bad thing and Starmer hasn't sacked her and there is no shitstorm.

She was that much of a glaring Antisemitic loony the 1940's Conservative party had to get shut of her because she was an embarrassment.

Stafford Cripps on her in the 40's in parliament: Our honourable member for Berlin

late 30's i meant obv!

I think that if you accept the story that Israeli security have trained US police departments the question of whether they taught them that specific move becomes trivial at best - surely no one is suggesting that the current anger at the US police is exclusively, or even mostly, about them using this move? The point is about collaboration between these two organisations, period.

this is extremely otm. none of the ppl commenting on this story know where chauvin learnt abt kneeling on ppls necks (although as mentioned in the middle east eye article plax links above this technique is used in israel/palestine and the minneapolis PD have taken part in this training so for all anyone in this thread knows he might have learned it from there), and it's clear that peake is making a point about the methods and approach of the US police, which have increasingly taken inspiration from counter-insurgency tactics (which obv reveals a lot about the underlying perception of black people in america, at least by the police). the way these methods are imported and exported is worth noting, even if the information is patchy and ppl are waiting to jump on you, and as gyac mentions there's pertinent precedent in the british police's use of torture - "the five techniques" - in NI which became m/l standard procedure in numerous places overseas during 'the war on terror' (including on children, including on british citizens, including ISI collaborating with greater manchester police to come up with questions during interrogation for a british citizen from rochdale during which he had his fingernails ripped out).

we're then left with this issue of daftness, and the argument reminds me of the talk about the relationship between the media and labour during the corbyn years, when ppl wld say "yes the treatment is unfair but what do you expect, this is the situation you have to deal with". as per SV there are dossiers kept on all sorts of ppl in politics and all sorts of ppl combing through things applying a level of scrutiny that has a chilling effect on democracy. being on the left and mentioning israel in a negative context? moronic. who'd get into politics where even your allies will insult and disavow you when you fail to meet absurd, maliciously-set standards?

^booming

"when you fail to meet absurd, maliciously-set standards?"

If the tories and lots of current and ex Labour Right arseholes were themselves judged by these standards, the whole ball of lies might unfurl and reveal them all as the same fraudulent liars, delusional fuckwits, committed to making all our lives worse because they hate the idea of genuine opposition and despise the lower classes. And also might reveal them to be virulently racist and Antisemitic, but just constantly getting away with it because the establishment are allowed to be nazi cunts.

Amazing post ogmor

Lots of allies sharing a story about a 2012 statewide conference convened by FBI, Israeli consulate and Minnetonka PD - that’s not Minneapolis and the story doesn’t show Minneapolis cops were amongst the 100 attendees. British people conflating locations with Minne- (mní in Dakota tribe language) place names ISN’T HELPING.

Ogmor gets it.

To ogmor's question part of the answer lies in direct action. The BLM protests, taking down the statue...the next education secretary won't be working with unions but teachers organising collectively without Labour's voice is still an option.

For the record, from the minute she took on the education brief @RLong_Bailey worked incredibly hard behind the scenes to master the complexities of our system, link up to a wide range of groups, across the political spectrum. She was a listener, and anything but factional.

— Melissa Benn (@Melissa_Benn) June 26, 2020

who'd get into politics where even your allies will insult and disavow you when you fail to meet absurd, maliciously-set standards?

Would really like to see more politicians in general just disavow social media altogether. Shared accounts with thoroughly team-vetted messages now and then if they must.

People might claim it's necessary for both sides to maximise engagement (and show their humanity or whatever) but then how much were Tory MPs ever tweeting simply 'register to vote!' if at all, to the extent that their electoral success can really be credited to their comms conduct.

Her record was being defended by Windmill Jolyon yesterday - pointing out she had done a huge amount behind the scenes, particularly related to legal action taken against the government to force additional COVID support.

He was arguing with Sonia Sodha, who thought she was rubbish and that and Observer editorial (author: S.Sodha) was far more useful in setting out a platform to support young people.