love* in the time of plague (and by love* i mean brexit* and other dreary matters of uk politics)

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Had my brother and sister-in-law and their friends on Facebook giving it, "Result!"

Future England Captain (Tom D.), Thursday, 25 June 2020 16:48 (three years ago) link

All the people who don't vote Labour now then?

xyzzzz__, Thursday, 25 June 2020 16:49 (three years ago) link

Thank God antisemitism has been defeated.

scampos mentis (gyac), Thursday, 25 June 2020 16:49 (three years ago) link

All the people who don't vote Labour now then?

I don't know who my brother voted for in the last election but I'm pretty certain my sister-in-law didn't vote Labour! I could definitely see them voting Labour with Starmzy as leader though.

Future England Captain (Tom D.), Thursday, 25 June 2020 16:55 (three years ago) link

I'm afraid she's just not very smart in that case.

None of them are particularly smart, in some ways it's the worst thing about them all

anvil, Thursday, 25 June 2020 17:08 (three years ago) link

My suspicion is that the decision was taken months ago to immediately fire the first frontbencher who did something like this regardless of who it was.

you think if rachel reeves made her astor comments last week instead of in february she'd have been booted?

rumpy riser (ogmor), Thursday, 25 June 2020 17:08 (three years ago) link

and ofc interesting to compare the response to RLB linking to an interview approvingly on twitter in which peake mentions the links between US policing and Israeli security with the (obv non-existent) response to shadow minister for apprenticeships and lifelong learning toby perkins publishing official campaign leaflets saying "I was disgusted that Travellers were extorting thousands of pounds to leave illegal camps. Now I've won cross party support for legislation to end this vile practice that robs businesses and landowners."

rumpy riser (ogmor), Thursday, 25 June 2020 17:21 (three years ago) link

đźš®

covid coronenberg (wins), Thursday, 25 June 2020 17:41 (three years ago) link

i’m going to break rank slightly here. i think she was stupid to retweet if she read it, and stupid if she hadn’t, this is especially the case if she was politically vulnerable.

rlb has got quite appealing form, to which i’m quite sympathetic, of knee jerk facing mancunian arts people (MES!) but as i say, bloody daft in the circs.

on the peake interview, as i think matt dc said, reaching for an israel connection, when US police are killing black people without any need for other reference points, is totally unnecessary and does feed into a soft AS.

also, and here it’s hard to say how much she was deliberately hamstrung by the party, but up against one of the worst tory cabinet ministers, she hasn’t performed noticeably well.

i like RLB. i’m *really* disappointed to see her go. it’s a strongman move i’m not sure starmer is in a position to make. but narratives other than “ffs RLB!” don’t make much sense to me.

Fizzles, Thursday, 25 June 2020 18:12 (three years ago) link

knee-jerk *faving

Fizzles, Thursday, 25 June 2020 18:13 (three years ago) link

This is quite good on a next step.

"Solidarity with Palestinians and with black people in the USA, victims of a single imperial system, is a basic principle for socialists. SCG members who remain on the frontbench, cannot pretend to be brave moles – they do not burrow but gnaw." https://t.co/CLnI7i59uR

— New Socialist (@NewSocialistUK) June 25, 2020

xyzzzz__, Thursday, 25 June 2020 18:23 (three years ago) link

idk i kinda get the imperial angle but what is to be gained by melding the BLM movement with Palestine? it sounds like it will create an entire front of weaknesses unlikely to progress either set of interests in order to do what? make a point about imperial militarism used domestically?

Fizzles, Thursday, 25 June 2020 18:34 (three years ago) link

You're not breaking rank with me btw.

Future England Captain (Tom D.), Thursday, 25 June 2020 18:38 (three years ago) link

no i meant to note that.

Fizzles, Thursday, 25 June 2020 18:41 (three years ago) link

the linking of the struggle for black liberation and the Palestinian struggle has been made time and time again and is just a common trope on the left: see Mandela, Angela Davis.

retweeting an actor saying a dumb, made-up thing linking Israel to the George Floyd murder, was a really fucking stupid thing to do. RLB is v much a protege of corbyn in that she makes unforced errors frequently

Rik Waller-Bridge (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 25 June 2020 18:43 (three years ago) link

xpost i guess i do have a problem using the word “imperial” wrt israel. it’s a highly militaristic state that has imo committed war crimes. but imperial is a *really* bad word to use wrt to a jewish state, mainly tho not exclusively because it is adjacent to the language of global rule of jewish conspiracy theories. it also doesn’t really meaningfully align with US imperialism either military or financial.

Fizzles, Thursday, 25 June 2020 18:47 (three years ago) link

I mean also the line is just one line in the piece which is, you know, a fairly long feature, but still, how could she miss that line and the connotations her linking to a piece with that line in it???

Rik Waller-Bridge (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 25 June 2020 18:48 (three years ago) link

it also doesn’t really meaningfully align with US imperialism either military or financial.

― Fizzles, Thursday, June 25, 2020 11:47 AM (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink

?

Rik Waller-Bridge (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 25 June 2020 18:49 (three years ago) link

i assume Fizzles means Israel isn't an imperial state rather than whether it benefits from US imperial policy

never mind that shit, here comes scampo (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 25 June 2020 18:51 (three years ago) link

I can see why just re-tweeting without careful framing (which can be used to discredit BLM by the wrong ppl) wasn't the best move but this whole episode is more of an issue with how MPs use social media to me.

Ultimately Starmer has weaponised AS in a factional way again. He gains nothing but applause from the wrong people. But that is the way he is running things, which might not have been clear to RLB, idk xps to Fizzles

xyzzzz__, Thursday, 25 June 2020 18:51 (three years ago) link

"retweeting an actor saying a dumb, made-up thing linking Israel to the George Floyd murder"

Except she was not doing this.

xyzzzz__, Thursday, 25 June 2020 18:52 (three years ago) link

as i said at the start, from Starmer's perspective this was the right move with very little down side

never mind that shit, here comes scampo (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 25 June 2020 18:52 (three years ago) link

Too right.

I can see why just re-tweeting without careful framing (which can be used to discredit BLM by the wrong ppl) wasn't the best move but this whole episode is more of an issue with how MPs use social media to me.

Too right x2.

Future England Captain (Tom D.), Thursday, 25 June 2020 18:54 (three years ago) link

"retweeting an actor saying a dumb, made-up thing linking Israel to the George Floyd murder"

Except she was not doing this.

― xyzzzz__, Thursday, June 25, 2020 11:52 AM (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink

which part of what I said was wrong?

Rik Waller-Bridge (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 25 June 2020 18:54 (three years ago) link

xps (and yes thanks NV) sorry maybe that was a bit compressed. i think it’s reasonable to call the US an imperial power. That imperialism expresses itself through global military presence and aggression. It also expresses itself through the fact, enforced by both the GFC and Covid, that the dollar is the only global currency - they are effectively the global lender of last resort, which gives them extraordinary power.

i don’t think these expressions of neoliberal imperialism are really applicable to israel. the logic of israeli aggression, taken to morally hateful consequences and fundamentally at odds with its originating zionist principled, is that of creating a safe space for the jewish people. the application of this logic has been the oppression and murder of the palestinian people. i do not think this represents a similar category of imperialism as the US.

i think blending the two creates all sorts of confusion. it may align, at a high level, with marxist notions of hegemony, supporting that theory at the expense of articulating more local differences doesn’t seem to me to be worth the candle.

Fizzles, Thursday, 25 June 2020 18:56 (three years ago) link

Too right.

/I can see why just re-tweeting without careful framing (which can be used to discredit BLM by the wrong ppl) wasn't the best move but this whole episode is more of an issue with how MPs use social media to me./

Too right x2.


yes!

Fizzles, Thursday, 25 June 2020 18:56 (three years ago) link

It was going to be weaponised against Labour regardless - like NV said the decision is about the realpolitik here. No one seriously believes RLB is antisemitic, including Starmer I suspect.

Matt DC, Thursday, 25 June 2020 18:56 (three years ago) link

it's only a very small country even if it is technically a warfare state, so Imperial is pushing the definition somewhat and does have dodgy "global" connotations.

calzino, Thursday, 25 June 2020 18:56 (three years ago) link

I love to know what the timeline was. Was anybody in the press was asking for her head bar a few Lab right cranks at midday?

Incredibly defensive, you can just see the press having a field day on a number of issues in an electoral campaign xps

xyzzzz__, Thursday, 25 June 2020 18:57 (three years ago) link

you know you are politically vulnerable, you know you are associated with AS via Corbynism (rightly or wrongly: my view is that there were a *lot* of bad faith AS attack lines on Corbyn) and yet...

Fizzles, Thursday, 25 June 2020 18:57 (three years ago) link

I love to know what the timeline was. Was anybody in the press was asking for her head bar a few Lab right cranks at midday?

Incredibly defensive, you can just see the press having a field day on a number of issues in an electoral campaign xps


not entirely sure but it was noted in the jewish chronicle fairly early on i think

Fizzles, Thursday, 25 June 2020 18:59 (three years ago) link

Defensive or offensive, you decide.

Future England Captain (Tom D.), Thursday, 25 June 2020 19:00 (three years ago) link

I think it fell into his lap.

Future England Captain (Tom D.), Thursday, 25 June 2020 19:00 (three years ago) link

Jim - this has been doing the rounds, but pretty much what Peake was drawing attention to.

https://www.amnestyusa.org/with-whom-are-many-u-s-police-departments-training-with-a-chronic-human-rights-violator-israel/

xp

xyzzzz__, Thursday, 25 June 2020 19:01 (three years ago) link

It goes back to what Ogmor said about Lady Astor and Rachel Reeves. I suspect that would not have been treated the same way but that's probably more to do with Astor than Reeves. No one's going to use a dead, rabidly antisemitic, Tory MP as a stick to beat Labour because it might cast some shade on the bullshit illusion that the Conservative Party has never been antisemitic.

Matt DC, Thursday, 25 June 2020 19:03 (three years ago) link

It was going to be weaponised against Labour regardless - like NV said the decision is about the realpolitik here. No one seriously believes RLB is antisemitic, including Starmer I suspect.


no, but i guess part of this can be filed under, “how do you manage labour in the UK media environment”

Labour AS *seemed* to me to be fairly small beer - meaningful in its presence but not contagious or widespread beyond known nasty groups - but that many unified actors across a number of different areas were determine to make it a thing.

i may be wrong here.

still it comes back to the point, even sympathetically, i would just be saying “jesus RLB, you’re great but, ffs you gotta go - you *know* what they’re looking for, and you *know* they’re especially looking at it for you.

Fizzles, Thursday, 25 June 2020 19:04 (three years ago) link

Jim - this has been doing the rounds, but pretty much what Peake was drawing attention to.

https://www.amnestyusa.org/with-whom-are-many-u-s-police-departments-training-with-a-chronic-human-rights-violator-israel/

xp

― xyzzzz__, Thursday, June 25, 2020 12:01 PM (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I know about this stuff, but it's not what Peake said.

Rik Waller-Bridge (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 25 June 2020 19:05 (three years ago) link

and i should say it’s reasonable to suppose that starmer was just looking for an excuse.

Fizzles, Thursday, 25 June 2020 19:05 (three years ago) link

I feel it’s important for me to clarify that, when talking to The Independent, I was inaccurate in my assumption of American Police training & its sources. I find racism & antisemitism abhorrent & I in no way wished, nor intended, to add fodder to any views of the contrary.

— Maxine Peake (@MPeakeOfficial) June 25, 2020

Fizzles, Thursday, 25 June 2020 19:06 (three years ago) link

My guess is that RLB is also fully aware she fucked up because she didn't treat this as a hill to die on. Quite the opposite.

If it was purely a factional play he would have quietly demoted her later - and maybe was planning to - but also wasn't going to turn down to opportunity to look tough and decisive on antisemitism.

An apology/mea culpa from RLB would have been enough imo, the reasons behind the sacking are stupid and destructive but this is the world we live in.

Matt DC, Thursday, 25 June 2020 19:09 (three years ago) link

(xp) Bit late for that Maxine, yer mate got her jotters because of you!

Future England Captain (Tom D.), Thursday, 25 June 2020 19:10 (three years ago) link

Jim - have you tried reading?

xyzzzz__, Thursday, 25 June 2020 19:10 (three years ago) link

why didn't we get this kind of shitstorm and a head rolling when DomCum used that AS foghorn "the likes of Goldman-Sachs" in his widely read blog and countless other incidents like the The Spectator running a Wehrmacht cleaning piece by Taki, the current tory leader of the house turning up at neo-nazi fundraiser. I just give up tbh. Peake isn't the most articulate actor in a profession where most of them talk utter shite, but Antisemitic? Maybe I'm turning into a crank, but this is complete shite!

calzino, Thursday, 25 June 2020 19:11 (three years ago) link

I have a real dread of being the “I don’t get what’s antisemitic about this??” guy, and I can see what people are saying about how it doesn’t display the best political instincts on rlb’s part, but I thought the clarification was fine. As noted itt starmzy has RTd spectator pieces.

It sucks cause it’s the first sign of life LOTO has displayed in weeks

covid coronenberg (wins), Thursday, 25 June 2020 19:13 (three years ago) link

no i think that’s otm - it serves as another reminder that an awful lot of this is playing the UK media space.

also i think it’s less about maxine peake (most people would go “who?”) than the decision to retweet her by a member of the shadow cabinet seen as the main significant representative of corbynism now.

Fizzles, Thursday, 25 June 2020 19:14 (three years ago) link

xp

Fizzles, Thursday, 25 June 2020 19:14 (three years ago) link

Jim - have you tried reading?

― xyzzzz__, Thursday, June 25, 2020 12:10 PM (four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

the Israeli secret services taught this specific kneeling on the head technique is peake's specific claim. this isn't supported anywhere. don't come the cunt with me

Rik Waller-Bridge (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 25 June 2020 19:16 (three years ago) link

saying something in the vicinity of the truth doesn't make it true

Rik Waller-Bridge (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 25 June 2020 19:16 (three years ago) link

Idk user wins, it doesn’t take a big brane genius to wonder why US police departments are taking policing training from Israeli units employing counter terrorism tactics, or even why an Irish-Mancunian might ping off the history of militarised police tactics being exported across borders to subjugate undesirables. I mean, call it my bias or upbringing or what have you, but that’s where my mind. Still, I’m glad it’s given people looking in on this thread some material to be snide about in others, and thankfully antisemitism has been sent packing by the noble Brits. As usual.

scampos mentis (gyac), Thursday, 25 June 2020 19:19 (three years ago) link

I think that if you accept the story that Israeli security have trained US police departments the question of whether they taught them that specific move becomes trivial at best - surely no one is suggesting that the current anger at the US police is exclusively, or even mostly, about them using this move? The point is about collaboration between these two organisations, period.

Likewise I don't see anything in Peake's statement that suggests she thinks US police wouldn't be able to brutalize the black population without help, or indeed that Israel is "behind" US police brutality; she was talking about structural racism on a global scale and how oppressive forces collaborate with each other, not casting one as the puppet of the other.

Daniel_Rf, Thursday, 25 June 2020 19:27 (three years ago) link


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