A new 30 Rock thread because I can't find the old one

"This isn't a good way to say this because back in the day, people were also laughing at the people in blackface because that's what White people thought Black people were like."

Right, but isn't that "with"? In other words, the audience and the actor are laughing together at their portrayal of what black people are "like"? But yes I do feel like my summation was falling short either way.

The audience isn't meant to be entertained by Jenna for the reasons that the Jenna character wants/intends.

You don't know what the audience is laughing at, and if you're being honest with yourself, you know some proportion of the audience is in fact laughing with Jenna.

of all possible objections, "won't someone think of the dumbest fucking people on earth" is maybe one of the less effective ones

xp slight disagree but the context of comedy at the very least always works from the axiom of the person is 'doing comedy's.. I know that's reductive but it gets completely ignored and I don't think the only way to do a funny racial joke is to have another character lecture about the history of racism

s

If we're going to fault humor for audiences misunderstanding the point of the joke, that will pretty much invalidate any politically-charged comedy ever.

I'm sure there were plenty of racist people who laughed at the Clayton Bigsby episode of Chappelle's show because a Black man hurled racial epithets against himself, but that fairly obviously wasn't the point of the piece and doesn't obfuscate its actual point. (Though I don't think today's climate would make it possible if his show was airing today).

Right, but isn't that "with"? In other words, the audience and the actor are laughing together at their portrayal of what black people are "like"?

I am not convinced this is a reasonable description of black actors doing blackface and/or mammy/coon roles.

You don't know what the audience is laughing at, and if you're being honest with yourself, you know some proportion of the audience is in fact laughing with Jenna. But I'm thinking more about the writer honestly questioning their own motivations and unconscious biases. Of course Tina Fey doesn't affirmatively want to make racist jokes, but a lot of comedy tropes have through lines that are very racist/homophobic/antisemitic and if you make them today, even with some meta-commentary about it being wrong, you're also bringing along that history. If I were writing a sitcom and came up with sketch along these lines, yeah, I would as a white dude very much ask myself if there wasn't some part of me that wanted to "get to" make edgy jokes.

As a Black man, I already know that virtually any depiction of Black people in media will be deemed "hilarious" regardless of whether there is any comedy involved or not (see The Hero Who Rescued Three Kidnapped Women in Cleveland Is Hilarious) and have taken that into account when processing my reactions to entertainment for at least the past 30 years, if not longer.

I'm sure there were plenty of racist people who laughed at the Clayton Bigsby episode of Chappelle's show

and ppl who identified & agreed with Archie Bunker

chappelle specifically spoke about hearing the wrong kind of laughter to his skits and that being one of the reasons he quit the show

iirc it was specifically the stereotype pixies sketch but it might've been a few different ones

i think mcgruder has spoken about the same thing

IIRC Chris Rock also has talked about people not understanding the "black people vs n*****s" routine the way he intended it

Yeah, my conservative white roommate and neighbour in grad school def used that 'distinction' to give themselves licence to use the n-word.

Going to double-check that I have a stable copy of the D&D Community episode, though.

I just remembered one of the instances of black face in 30 rock is Jenna and her partner dressing up for halloween, him as Natalie Portman in black swan and her as former Pittsburgh steeler Lynn Swann. there's no "Jenna is being racist" "commentary" or whatnot going on. it's just a blackface gag

That's the only instance I remember, the "Black Swann" costume thing. Not defending it since I can't recall the full context, but I thought that was followed pretty quickly by a horrified Toofer telling her why that wasn't okay.

It was. And it was nixed pretty quickly afterward

Were there many 70s/80s sitcoms about awful people where the jokes centered on what terrible people they were? When did that trend start? Seinfeld?

All in the Family, referenced above, seems like the obvious example.

That's the only instance I remember, the "Black Swann" costume thing. Not defending it since I can't recall the full context, but I thought that was followed pretty quickly by a horrified Toofer telling her why that wasn't okay.

― soaring skrrrtpeggios (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Tuesday, June 23, 2020 9:33 AM (four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

It was. And it was nixed pretty quickly afterward

― I hear that sometimes Satan wants to defund police (Neanderthal), Tuesday, June 23, 2020 9:36 AM (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink

nope, incorrect.

I don't remember that one but, even if you're right, I don't see why they should scrub the other ones that were clearly critical.

Maybe All in the Family, but I'm thinking along the lines of stuff like "Don't Trust the B in Apartment 23" where they're unapologetically self-centered assholes and that's like the fusion engine for every joke on the show.

I think a case that extreme is pretty rare even today. Archie Bunker surely no less terrible/unsympathetic than the characters in Seinfeld.

"I am not convinced this is a reasonable description of black actors doing blackface and/or mammy/coon roles."

To be clear I'm definitely asking and not trying to convince or challenge. But yeah I realized the at vs. with distinction doesn't make as much sense if we're talking about a real person doing blackface for an audience they're aware of.

xps

I'm very interested in what people on this thread think of Bamboozled

― shout-out to his family (DJP), Tuesday, June 23, 2020 10:55 AM (forty-five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

great movie

It was. And it was nixed pretty quickly afterward

― I hear that sometimes Satan wants to defund police (Neanderthal), Tuesday, June 23, 2020 9:36 AM (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink

nope, incorrect.

― Rik Waller-Bridge (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, June 23, 2020 12:38 PM bookmarkflaglink

My mistake, I was talking about the scenario DJP was. I don't remember the Lynn Swann ep

Sometimes I wonder if that show-about-jerks pretext arose as a response to comedy writers being told there were some jokes that weren't funny anymore... I watch and love a lot of those shows, but at some point (especially when the showrunners continue to be mostly white, mostly men) it starts to feel like a hack so they don't have to make more of an effort.

(although there were moments in the director's commentary that made me wonder for a split second if I was overestimating Lee. e.g. "one of the main reasons I did this scene was the name, 'Tommy Hilfiger'") xxp

The weird thing is there WERE things I found possibly offensive about 30 Rock that this does nothing about. The recurring joke about Toofer being a "two-fer: black and a Harvard grad" seemed more questionable to me, or iirc an affirmative action joke about a djsabled minority early on.

I think a case that extreme is pretty rare even today

It's Always Sunny?

I'm very interested in what people on this thread think of Bamboozled

oh man I just rewatched a couple weeks back. extremely rough around the edges and badly in need of an edit but undeniably powerful

This "controversy" is dumb. The use of blackface in these sketches was specifically pointed AGAINST the people appearing in blackface; it was never held up as a good or funny thing in and of itself.

Same goes for the With Bob & David sketch that Netflix pulled last week (in that case, Cross and Odenkirk objected, rather than instigating). One can see a case for, say, the Black Swan joke being trimmed, but pulling the entire live episode when the explicit text of those segments is that the Tracy Morgan character is demeaned and dehumanised to his face by this aspect of the entertainment industry is bonkers.

If I were writing a sitcom and came up with sketch along these lines, yeah, I would as a white dude very much ask myself

tbf it's more than possible that these jokes and sketches were generated by or developed with staff writers like Hannibal Buress, Donald Glover, Nina Pedra or Vali Chandrasekaran.

not sure what the difference is between this and, say, the joke that got shane gillis pre-fir3d from snl (the punchline in both is 'a character being racist')

no it isn't. HTH!

tbf it's more than possible that these jokes and sketches were generated by or developed with staff writers like Hannibal Buress, Donald Glover, Nina Pedra or Vali Chandrasekaran.

hannibal buress (1 "written by" credit) wrote for 30 rock for 6 months, Donald glover (2 "written by" credits) didn't write on the 5th or 6th seasons of 30 rock as he was starring on community (3 of the 4 blackface jokes are in those seasons), Nina pedrad (2 "written by" credits) didn't write on 30 rock when 2 of the 4 blackface episodes were written, neither did vali chandrakesan (6 "written by" credits).

the episodes with blackface jokes were either co-written by Tina fey (29 "written by" credits) with other white writers or "written by" white writers. all of these writers have more "written by" credits than all of the POC writers you mentioned, 2 of them have more "written by" credits than the POC writers you mentioned put together.

Thanks for checking the timelines (seriously), but I was just going off the obviously non-white names I remembered as being on the show (okay, I had to google to get Chandrakesan's name right), and my wording referred specifically to the fact that it was a heavily room-written series - just saying that I wouldn't automatically assume that no writers of melanin contributed to any given 30 Rock joke or premise.

(On the other hand, I have a vague memory that Buress may have been clued into the extent of Bill Cosby's crimes from Tina Fey when he worked on the show, rather than bringing the jokes about it in himself? Either way, as real-actual-idea-and-typing-writer or boss, her intentions were clearly to say "blackface is racist and bad.")

except there's one blackface gag where there is no reference to it being racist and bad, it's just a punchline

One can see a case for, say, the Black Swan joke being trimmed, but pulling the entire live episode when the explicit text of those segments is that the Tracy Morgan character is demeaned and dehumanised to his face by this aspect of the entertainment industry is bonkers.

I'd guess it's more a question of spending the money to re-edit the episodes to take out the questionable material (leaving in most of them at best a weird, disjointed episode) vs just removing them entirely.

xp. she was also head writer on snl for the aforementioned jimmy Fallon Chris rock blackface skit

when are they going to cancel this show?

Right, the easiest thing is to just pull the episode. No streaming service is going to pony up to pay someone for even the laziest editing, when they can just yank the whole thing.

is there a reason the "Jimmy Fallon as Chris Rock" bit is being brought up and not the multiple "Darrell Hammond as Jesse Jackson" ones?

did Tina Fey write the Darrell Hammond sketches?

she was also head writer on snl for the aforementioned jimmy Fallon Chris rock blackface skit

I have no desire to see this, but "approved Jimmy Fallon in blackface sketch" -> "wrote several jokes that were explicitly about blackface being shitty" -> "pulled entire episodes rather than have those jokes be misinterpreted" seems like the progression to note, rather than stopping at the step that happened two decades ago.


when are they going to cancel this show?

There's a new episode next month tbh, which could be part of her reason for getting the eps out of rotation right now.

When I heard about that journalist who got fired recently when it came out that she went to a party in blackface a few years ago as some kind of anti-Megyn Kelly joke, I thought that 30 Rock could done some good Jenna as resistance lib material.

The weird thing is there WERE things I found possibly offensive about 30 Rock that this does nothing about. The recurring joke about Toofer being a "two-fer: black and a Harvard grad" seemed more questionable to me, or iirc an affirmative action joke about a djsabled minority early on.

Found it: https://youtu.be/_K_gBjKqBLg

Unless there's a wrinkle I'm missing?

I receive that joke as a) a critique of the Old Boy network that elevates mediocre White men at the expense of others, b) a critique of how niche you need to be to advance to even be granted an interview for certain positions if you aren't a mediocre White man with connections, and c) lampooning the perceptions mediocre White men with connections have of their competition. I don't see the Black man in the wheelchair as the target of the joke.

Re: Toofer, that is explicit mocking of a real phenomenon I've experienced and I didn't find the joke offensive.

The joke is on Donaghy’s attitude, expectations and bubble of privilege

Luckily this was the only example of 30 Rock creating humorous bathos from the generation of audience sympathy for shitty people, and every episode for the remaining six and a half seasons just had Kenneth doing nice things for old ladies while the rest of the cast smiled gently at him

xp

Hm, OK, so there's a second level where the joke is actually on the person making the offensive comment. I'll try to watch from that pov. xp to DJP, whatever to sic

damn, the white man gets overlooked again!

really thought the joke was p straightforwardly 'that man meets two corporate diversity check marks and will definitely be the hire' but interesting to hear other perspectives

i loved 30 rock. prolly still do tho I haven't seen it in a while now. but I remember thinking 'wow they really want to have their cake and eat it too, huh' w/the blackface parts. also I remember thinking that almost every joke regarding black ppl played off white ppls inability to comprehend blackness or some other similar woke trickiness... while literally every joke about fat ppl was just 'lol, fat ppl (bad/gross)'

I also want to come back to the Lynn Swann/Black Swan joke because everyone else is processing that as "lol isn't it funny that the White woman is in blackface" and I'm processing it as "it isn't funny that these two deranged idiots are so in sync that they independently came up with this grossly inappropriate idea and are blithely following through on it as if it was normal"

Like, to me the entire thrust of the joke is that Jenna and Paul are both fucking insane, not that blackface is in and of itself funny.