Rolling Music Theory Thread

Mixolydian songs that actually use the v chord (which is minor): "All Things Must Pass"

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Somebody just posted a link to this elsewhere, seems interesting: http://cochranemusic.com/slonimsky-guitar-book

We teach or study Bach chorale harmonizations so much on paper in an analytical/formulaic way that it can be easy to forget how incredible they can sound and work musically, how much Bach got out of these hymn melodies in such short amounts of time. I was just looking at and listening to BWV 122.6, a harmonization of verse 4 "Das neugeborne Kindelein": it consists of four four-bar phrases and takes about 40s in this performance: https://open.spotify.com/track/15iLRj3RAbWzWw9cWpjFbA?si=32OV2v08TKmb-qWGDZKrUA. In that time, it modulates three times so that each phrase is in a different key that the previous one. See the score here: https://www.bach-cantatas.com/PDFCH/012206.pdf. The first phrase ends with a half cadence in G minor. The second modulates to D minor and ends with an authentic cadence but on a Picardy so that the final chord is D major. The third phrase modulates to Bb major and ends with a perfect authentic cadence with a cadential 6/4. The last phrase modulates back to G minor and ends with a Picardy so that there is a perfect authentic cadence landing on G major.

Wow!

My daughter is learning the harmonic minor scale right now:)

:)

Just encountered an interesting (to me) listening ear/training thing that maybe I will comment on tomorrow if I remember.

Thread:

I've listened to Kyle Gann's Hyperchromatica a lot since it came out but never really broke down or read up properly on the actual tuning system he developed, although the info was all there /1: https://t.co/uduo3CLofj…#xen #newmusic #microtonality

— Sundar Subramanian (@SundarSubrama13) August 16, 2020

4=a

Thinking more about Bach chorales (again), I wonder what insights we'd glean if we actually translated and read the actual texts of the hymns Bach was harmonizing and considered the harmonizations in terms of how Bach was expressing these messages (and applying this understanding as well when we write our pastiches) - obv that was an important part of it for him and no doubt musicologists are doing it but I wonder if even core undergrad/conservatory theory would be strengthened with more integration of this element. It always seems a little odd that we study these as abstract formula. We do study Romantic lied this way.

Sorry, meant that it's common to study Romantic lieder in terms of how the music works to express the text.

You got an example?

That's the thing - I've been teaching them for over a decade without ever doing this. It just strikes me as an odd thing so more something I want to look into. Will tackle one or two this week.

I listened to a handful of chorales and read the translations... I didn't really see anything worth commenting on. The melody already existed, sad hymns were sad, happy hymns were happy, Picardie employed to indicate resolve. There's interfacing between text and harmonization but I didn't see anything that subverted or changed the message of the lyrics, it just seemed tonally appropriate at all times.

Interesting idea, though! I've long been obsessed with David Wilcock's descant to Mendelssohn's "Hark! The Herald Angels Sing"-- the dissonant Fs on the final refrains, aaaaaaah!! I've wondered what the intention was, with regards to lyrical interfacing, colouring of the text, but I just figured it was mathematically designed to break my heart into a thousand pieces

Oh sure, I don't doubt that the text-music relationship is probably simpler than in Schubert. Might still inform one's appreciation of why e.g. a Picardy or secondary dominant is used in specific places; also might make it a more conscious/intentional expressive task to write a chorale harmonization if you're thinking about expressing something and not just applying quasi-algorithmic rules.

Will look at the one you mention!

Ya you probably know it. There are a couple of articles online that describe it as 'the best descant in the repertoire' and it admittedly is super turbo good, it's my favourite carol as a result

This song is in C major but what's happening at 1:23? I think the lead guitarist in the L channel is playing in C minor (after the 1st bar) while the lead guitarist (overdub?) in the R is playing in B minor?!https://t.co/pwcfzvhnnO#musictheory #polytonality #indiemusic #guitar

— Sundar Subramanian (@SundarSubrama13) August 19, 2020

this is an old article, but it popped up on twitter. we can all agree that a bunch of these are not actually key changes, right?

https://music.avclub.com/can-you-take-me-high-enough-24-songs-with-a-pivotal-k-1798278771

specifically, hey jude (just a change of chord progression that emphasizes the bVII), undone (maybe modulates in the solo, but comes right back to the key center for the chorus), and since u been gone (i think she just sings a different melody over the same chord progression over the last chorus).

Hey Jude, no, that's a secondary dominant
Weezer, yep that's a key change, even though it comes back
"Since You Been Gone", yikes, that's not even a secondary dominant or anything, just a substituted chord

Good that they included "Love On Top" that's a real important one, it reminded me of Kevin Blechdom's "I Will Always Love You" when I first heard it haha

"Miss Misery" doesn't qualify I don't think, I think of key changes as when an actual change of key signature would be required, when the tonal centre has completely shifted, and the post-chorus moment they're pointing out just isn't that, the gravity is still around the main key of the song

The rest of them seem legit

There's a lot of interesting suggestions in the comments. It's true that they can't really talk about "key changes in pop music" without mentioning Beach Boys, those are really the cleverest and most effective, "Surf's Up" still confounds me, it's the rare song that I've heard hundreds of times but wouldn't be able to sound out at the piano from memory.

"Karma Police" is a real good suggestion in the comments, "Bohemian Rhapsody", too.

I'm on-the-fence as to how you'd describe a song where the verses and choruses are just in different keys, and the changing between them happens often-- "Layla", for example, although the shift between keys is garbage writing, imo.

One of the most confounding moments in pop music, for me, is "This Guy's In Love With You" (Bacharach/David). The "Say you're in love / in love with this guy" secondary dominant is so powerful that it threatens to usurp the actual key centre of the entire song. I fucking love that moment

Before listening, just scanning this over, a bunch of these are just the truck driver modulation, right?

it's the rare song that I've heard hundreds of times but wouldn't be able to sound out at the piano from memory.

i can mostly do this, but that's after practicing it for about 8 hours straight one day lol

"Layla", for example, although the shift between keys is garbage writing, imo.

i always thought that transition was very jarring, tho the chromaticism is kinda fun.

a personal favorite key change of mine is costello's 'oliver's army,' which changes key from A to B right away in the bridge by shifting to the new key's relative minor of G#m, but doesn't become obvious until he returns to the verse.

The write-up on Cheap Trick "Surrender" doesn't mention that there are two changes in the song... I've always loved how the intro is in Bb but then it goes immediately to B (and never goes back to Bb)

is there a turnaround in that one, or does it just jump up a half-step when the verse starts?

Nope, it just jumps a half-step arbitrarily off the top, and then it does the same move again when they get to the verse where the parents are banging

That's great, yeah.

What do we make of "Girl from Ipanema"? Let's look at the original Getz/Gilberto version in Db, not the fakebook version in F. Here's a faithful transcription of Gilberto's guitar part: http://www.hjgs.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/The-girl-from-ipanema.pdf . And this is the melody: https://drive.google.com/file/d/11gZNXD-CJ87Gkm4USTvWuDpPH_XdYD5t/view?usp=sharing. The A sections aren't too crazy: essentially, the progression of Db [6/9] - Eb9 - Ebm9 - D7 - Db [6/9] reduces to a I - ii - V7 - I progression with a tritone substitution for V7 (D7 instead of Ab7) and a chromatic II7 chord produced by an incomplete neighbouring note between the I and ii chords. EXCEPT Gilberto played the entire thing in second inversion, which seems crazy but works for some reason - what is the reason, though? Over the ii-V(tri sub)-I turnaround, I can see that the fifths in the bass are mostly doubling the melody; this still doesn't explain the bass in the first four bars. Also, it's a little trickier because the tri sub chord isn't a real D7 - there's no root in either the guitar part or the melody. It's actually F# dim/A, which could substitute for D7 but is now a substitute for a substitute?

The B section is the really fun part, though. The most convincing explanation (Ed Byrne's or my adjustment of his) I've seen analyses mm. 11-22 as moving through three unresolved tonicizations:
Dmaj7-G7 is IV-bVII7 of A
Dm7-Bb7 is ii-bVII7 of C
and Ebm7-Cb7 is ii-bVII7 of the home key of Db
and from there we just go to a standard chain of ii-V-Is

which is not bad as an explanation but... where do those key areas/tonicizations come from?? A (Bbb) works as a chromatic mediant move to bVI from Db but why do we get to C from there? Why does G7 go to Dm7? (Bb7 to Ebm7 is obv straightforward.)

and from there we just go to a standard chain of ii-V-Is

Although, actually, Cb7-Fm7 is still a bit wtf.

I love reading this thread but I think I understand general relativity more than I understand music theory. Is there such a thing as a good primer?

I think I can pick a key change, fwiw: Quicksand by Bowie has a good one, right (into the second verse)?

Bossa nova is a game of rhythmic and harmonic obscurantism. The word I like to use is "buoyancy"-- if you de-emphasize the downbeat, or remove the root of a chord, you're left with something not "unfinished" but something that floats.

I think of "Ipanema" as being, harmonically, like a game of zero-gravity Jenga. Remove the root, stack added pitches on top, you get something that floats. I've always appreciated the way that the first four bars of the melody have Joao singing the 7th and the 9th, dancing around the root Db of the chord, and the way it evokes, I suppose, a nice ass. He only hits the tonic over the ii7 chord, a little kiss before he descends to have the vocal melody cadence on the 5th of the chord.

The melody cadences on the 5th of the chord-- and the guitar chords are in 2nd inversion (the 5th of the chord in the bass). What is the reason? It's because, without the underpinning bass (firmly establishing that we're in Db), we'd be misled into thinking that our song is happening in Ab, a version of Ab with a lot of add6s. It's like a party trick-- the ear doesn't realize the song is actually in Db until the bass enters to set you straight.

sund4r: don't let Joao fool you with that D7/A. It's not as complicated as what you're describing, it's just an Ab-flat9, with the Ab root omitted, and the flat9 in the root! (Joao's D69/A that follows, though, although it is close in structure to an Ab-flat9, it's not the same-- this is just a chromatic substitution.)

The B-section is a very, very difficult thing to parse. I just struggled with it but I think I have a solution. Byrne's interpretation of the B-section is different from mine. I hear the first 12 bars this way:

Dmaj7 - G7 is a II - V7 of C. Look at the vocal melody, ends on a B, my ear wants to hear that B rise to a C for a nice pat resolution. And it almost does...

The "Dm7" has a G in the root-- all the pitches of a Cmaj triad are here in this chord! We have a Dmaj7 - G7 - C! (except the "C" is actually some hybrid of a Dm7 and a G7).

But yeah that Dm7? G7? chord is complicated, I think that it functions this way:

Dm7 - Bb7 is a bvii7 - V7 of Eb.

And we get that resolution to Eb-- except to an Ebm7. We duplicate this chord sequence up a half step:

Ebm7 - B7 is a bvii7 - V7 of E.

The subsequent "standard chain of ii - Vs" is made so lovely with those #11s, a very underrated chord addition.

Kudos to Jobim, this is a gorgeously complicated thing, I've never unpacked it before and it's wonderful.

Also sund4r just to make things about myself, I have a song called "Perseverance.." that does the same thing as Joao does-- the song appears to be in some kind of complicated B, but then the bass enters half-way through and establishes that no, we're in E.

Chinaski, do you read music? Play an instrument? Are you looking for more theory to help with composition/songwriting? Improvisation? Analytical listening? Particular idioms you are interested in? "Where to start" could have v different answers depending.

Sund4r's line of questioning is good. I'd like to think at this point I intellectually understand theory to some degree, at least from a jazz angle, but I still don't always hear it , except for the more obvious harmonic clichés, and there's no way I understand a fraction as much as the previous two very well-trained posters. In the end I found it more useful to be doing something with it rather than just reading about it to get something to stick in the earhole and brainworm.

As far as "Garota de Ipanema" haven't read the previous posts properly yet, but Jobim is a really clever composer and it is often hard to tell how he is doing what he is doing when he is doing it, often the chords will move a little bit in one direction while the melody shifts a little in the other, the aural equivalent of some kind of visual paradoxical stairstep effect if you will. He definitely does all kinds of interesting stuff that doesn't seem like moving around the circle of fifths and doing the usual substitutions.

There is also the question of what Tom is writing and what João is playing. Think part of what differentiated Bossa was not just the fancy harmonic movement but the relatively simplified rhythmic patterrns. It's almost motorik compared to other Brazilian stuff! He deliberately wasn't playing the boom-chick of a root-five samba bass line. He was more playing descending or ascending lines. Think somewhere I read he just preferred the fifth string and avoided the sixth which is maybe one reason he might hang out on the fifth in the bass.

Or maybe he was hanging out on the sixth string and just playing the fifth of the chord there, but he definitely didn't shift basses between the fifth and the sixth string lightly.

Guess I haven't tried to play that one in a month or so, since I don't remember what string the bass note is on!

Okay, took another proper look. That B-section is K-krazy, can't I just file it under non-functional harmony and be done with it?

the guitar chords are in 2nd inversion (the 5th of the chord in the bass). What is the reason? It's because, without the underpinning bass (firmly establishing that we're in Db), we'd be misled into thinking that our song is happening in Ab, a version of Ab with a lot of add6s. It's like a party trick-- the ear doesn't realize the song is actually in Db until the bass enters to set you straight.

Yeah, that's a good point. I was focusing so much on the guitar part, and the unaccompanied first verse, that I was overlooking the bass part, which, you're right, does put the roots of the chords in their place and also puts an Ab under that dominant-functioning chord, making it an Ab flat9, as you say.

Dmaj7 - G7 is a II - V7 of C. Look at the vocal melody, ends on a B, my ear wants to hear that B rise to a C for a nice pat resolution. And it almost does...

The "Dm7" has a G in the root-- all the pitches of a Cmaj triad are here in this chord! We have a Dmaj7 - G7 - C! (except the "C" is actually some hybrid of a Dm7 and a G7).

But yeah that Dm7? G7? chord is complicated, I think that it functions this way:

Dm7 - Bb7 is a bvii7 - V7 of Eb.

And we get that resolution to Eb-- except to an Ebm7. We duplicate this chord sequence up a half step:

Ebm7 - B7 is a bvii7 - V7 of E.

B-b-but II maj7 and vii m7 (not bvii in these cases) are the kinds of symbols under which my old theory prof would have written "don't write meaningless Roman numerals" - they don't refer to any harmonic function I'm familiar with. bVII7 is a common enough substitute for V7 in a jazz context. The only way I would understand those others is as chromatic products of voice-leading (like the Eb9 chord in the A section), which could work if the melody strongly suggested the key areas you give but I have trouble hearing that - if mm. 11-14 are in (or tonicizing) C, we get neither the tonic nor the dominant in the melody and the first two bars are built around C#/Db, which is obv not part of that tonality, with unresolved leading notes in m. 12 - so I can't hear C as the tonal centre there. I am able to hear A as a centre there with the melodic phrase beginning on a prolonged C# (the mediant) and resolving to the tonic on the third bar of the phrase. Likewise with the next two.

Also, where are you hearing the G during the Dm7?

does put the roots of the chords in their place and also puts an Ab under that dominant-functioning chord, making it an Ab flat9, as you say.

Although, yeah, it does have the effect of making the unaccompanied verse tonally ambiguous.

James Redd et al - "non-functional harmony" is a bit of a cop-out. There still has to be some logic to how the material is organized, post-tonal or otherwise.

(But yeah, do see the temptation, lol)

Okay, read through this a bit finally and mostly liked fgti's analysis, haven't parsed Sund4r's response yet.

Also wanted to post a bit of interesting trivia here I just learned from a book length academic study of Jobim that My Smart Neighbor™ told me about: he was asked to write the score for The Pink Panther and Two For the Road and later The Exorcist, all of which he turned down, the first two being written of course by Henry Mancini.

Here is a long video I haven't watched yet about this song from another super smart guy I have had the pleasure to talk to, Adam Neely:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFWCbGzxofU

Please feel free to call me on this cheesy Borrowed Prestige maneuver.

Gets really interesting at around minute 25.

Somebody told me that in the Chediak Jobim Songbook, which the composer presumably was involved in, the key is F and that the Db on Getz/Gilberto was probably because of Astrud's range.

Chinaski, do you read music? Play an instrument? Are you looking for more theory to help with composition/songwriting? Improvisation? Analytical listening? Particular idioms you are interested in? "Where to start" could have v different answers depending.

Thank you for your response. My query is more along the lines of, say, the relationship of linguistics to everyday language: I am immersed in music (and play the guitar a bit) yet the mechanics are completely opaque - to the point where reading your conversations on here leaves me feeling a bit like Wittgenstein's lion. I need a year 1/year 2 text, I think!

Anyway, I'm conscious of derailing.

I kinda can't talk about "Ipanema" any more just because it is a truly difficult song to parse and it seems more like a conversation at a piano than a series of posts!

Heh, think I know what you mean. In any case, I usually like this guy's approach to theory and here is something that may or may not be relevant: https://antonjazz.com/2012/01/backdoor-ii-v-progression/