no boys allowed in the room!!!!

"Do you have any... other... commitments in [location you would have to move from to take this job]?" Asked of me a year or so ago in an interview for a lectureship.

Oh, that's a good example.

Ask a roundabout question, get a roundabout answer.

Other commitments? “Not to speak of”
Lol
I hate probing questions that aren’t totally straightforward. If you have to squeeze something out of me, chances are it’s not coming out. That’s for the birds.

She arrived a bit early for the interview and the receptionist type person (older woman) was chatting to her about what area she'd come from, who she lived with etc - newly married - and said something like 'ooh, will babies be on the way' or something annoying like that - friend sort of made polite noises like 'oh, who knows!' (she actually doesn't want kids!) but now she's not sure if that was taken one way or another or passed on to the hiring staff - she didn't get the job. I'm sure it's nothing but it pisses me off that you get asked this even in semi-informal situations.
In my workplaces the receptionist would have been firmly told not to ask such things but I get the feeling this was a more informal place of work.

A mess of extremely tedious work PLUS temperatures pushing towards 100 PLUS my monthly curse? How much more Monday can it get?

Every time.

Every. Single. Fucking. Time.

Posting to ILX is a collossal act of self harm, and I should know better than to expose myself to that, even when I'm trying to help someone else.

I no longer pass for "no boys" and don't really feel comfortable here, but every time I set foot on a "Queer" thread, I have to be reminded that I'm not welcome in that space.

Branwell -- even if you feel you "no longer pass" -- I would like to think you are "grandfathered" into this thread (sorry for punny)

also, this thread reminds me that ilx is easier to understand as a bunch of individual people with specific histories and traumas and preferences, and it isn't really representative of much that is larger than that ... especially when you get into more "niche" areas, including queer ilx, non-male ilx, regional ilx threads, i love cars ... I guess what I'm trying to say is, you shouldn't feel unwelcome in those spaces because of your gender identity/sexuality -- it is probably related to specific posters and how they react to certain things -- which in the case of threads related to marginalized identity issues, is likely coming from a place of trauma and may be unfairly projected on you (which sucks -- I've been there -- not on ilx, really, but IRL).

"no boys" is dated af and speaking for my ?gender-y self, boy energy is for sure welcome on this thread. cis man horseshit clearly has plenty of threads already

i echo the sentiment of grandfathering in but i also know i can't decide where you feel comfortable, but i hope you do continue to post here and feel comfy doing so Branwell. i also 100% agree about the self harm piece, my god. i mostly avoid ILE and post on rolling music threads -- which feels so weird because ILE used to feel like LESS of a misogynistic shithole than ILM to me, but now i mostly feel like music nerd misogyny is the familiar kind of misogyny that i can navigate well with minimal energy, whereas i don't even fucking know what traumatic shit i might encounter on ILE in a given day

oops didn't mean to gloss over that you said "don't really feel comfortable here" meaning this thread, sorry about that, i misread and thought that meant ILX in general

I'm not really OK right now, so I'm not sure I'm in the best space to be posting. (I've had terrible insomnia the past two nights, and one of the big contributors to that stress is the whole ~ghosts of ILX pile-ons past~, like I am never going to be truly free from the PTSD-like aftereffects of being at the bottom of ILX pile-ons so many times?)

I'm really tired of serving as a repository for other posters' feelings about "difficult" "women", about older women, about their mothers, about "terfs" etc. etc. ad nauseum forever and ever amen.

I feel so completely distanced from even the category of "woman" right now - to the point where I feel like I am taking up space intended for others just by posting on this thread - and yet I cannot seem to ever escape the misogyny attached to other people's assocations at just the sight of me? The prickle on the back of the neck, when stepping into a thread that you feel should not be so hostile, yet the lashing out of hostility always takes me by surprise, and I feel like I'm stupid for not avoiding the blow, even though I anticipated it? To the point where it genuinely feels like self harm, like "duh, of course there was going to be a lashing out and then a pile-on, there always is!" while still recognising that's... well, that's kinda victim-blamey? What did you expect, talking about being AFAB in a 'Queer' thread?!?!?

But I will never be free from the stench of AFAB in other people's minds? Even knowing, there *isn't* really any "woman" on me, except in my memory and my past. "Woman" doesn't even have a smell, that's just misogyny. But the smell doesn't exist on me, it doesn't exist on "woman" as a concept, it exists in other people's minds? I don't know if that even makes sense.

I think the title is fine, like "No Boys" really puts it quite succinctly, in a kind of "everyone but cis dudes" energy. Because no matter how boy-like I feel, 30 seconds on the Queer thread will remind me that I will never, ever get to be A Boy.

I'm tired of talking about misogyny all the time. But I'm even more tired of encountering it. I just wanna talk about shoes and haircuts and some funny thing that once happened to me in a gay leather shop in Berlin, right?

I don't really enjoy rolling threads on ILM because that's just not how I *think* about music? Like, I tend to like A Thing, and I get really really deeply obsessed with That Thing, and no other Thing, even Things that are broadly similar to the Thing in genre, will quite do? I don't like ~bands that kinda sound like Einstürzende Neubauten~ or ~industrial kinda bands~ or whatever, I like Einstürzende Neubauten, and nothing else has the Neubautenyness I dig?

I wish I could stop this word vomit; I know that long word-vomit posts are a big part of why people react so negatively to me. I wish I could just zing and be done, but that's not a mode available to me, because if I don't specify and hedge and qualify every part of my argument, someone will pick out the bit I got wrong and tear me to pieces. I'm bored of being back in that place of fear and phobia and self-pity again.

What do I actually *like*? Cemeteries and Caryatids and Victorian angel memorials, that's what I'm into right now. Anyone wanna see some creepy Victorian angels?

Sure! I could be into caryatids! I have photos somewhere of ones from this little side temple of the Parthenon, they were cool.

(About the rest--no diss of however you need to show up, Branwell. I took it in, I have no judgement, I wish you felt better.)

I've been giving myself haircuts and I'm pretty happy with my clipper skills and also I haven't worn makeup since the beginning of the year sometime and along the way I realized I might actually like my face?

Vienna was like, city of the caryatids, holy hell, so many caryatids, like every corner had ladies holding up something.

https://traurigedamen.tumblr.com/post/187377834776/corner-of-countless-caryatids-vienna-2019

(Vienna's caryatids are usually clothed in flowing robes; Berlin's caryatids are normally naked, like I could understand wanting to be naked in Vienna's climate, but wow don't those naked Berlinner ladies get cold?)

Self administered haircuts are something I really should get better at doing. I should invest in some clippers (like, how dare I even call myself queer if I don't own any?!?!) - is it difficult to learn how to use them?

I am glad you are feeling comfortable with your face. That's a good feeling.

re: clippers -- depends on what you are going for?

My first clippers were inherited from my mom who had purchased them in 1969 so she could give my dad the regulation buzz cut when he was in basic training at Fort Benning ... they were a bit wonky by the time I got them and probably there was dust that had accumulated in the motor area so there would sometimes be a burning smell and the motor had a very "harsh noise" aesthetic. They died at some point in the early 2000s. I got a new pair around then (I shared them with my bf at the time who used them more than me). This pair had the full set of attachments --

easiest is to pick one attachment length and use it on the whole head -- or section of hair. I leave the top long, and buzz from the ears down around the side of my head because my hair is thick and dense and gets a bit fro-y. Note: this is the opposite of the legendary "blended haircut"

Vienna's caryatids are kind of sassy! I like the hand-on-hip one. "You talkin ta ME?" in NYC parlance.

I just did my 5th haircut with the clippers plus a shaper razor and I'm definitely getting better. I watched a lot of youtube videos to get started.

It's kinda the early 90s "skatepunk grrl" haircut (that I regularly gave myself since -- the early 90s) -- though I stopped clipping the undersides several years ago because the haircut had fascist connotations (fuck you Richard Spenser) but since Covid, I think it's okay now.

Most recent results (if this link works): https://photos.app.goo.gl/tQNRhTCwAniGuoL67

yah!

You can kinda see a line along the side where I didn't blend the fade very well, but it's an improvement over the first couple of times!

fades are tricky! ... I am sure even gabbneb would appreciate the effort lol

The bald spot is from an accident, it's not a clipper mishap. If I were a better stylist, I would recut my hair to be longer in the back and hide it but I like the way it looks short from the front and sides. It feels good! I like my face a lot less when my hair grows out--the high-and-tight feels good.

Haircut looks AWESOME, I actually really love the chunky look of the lines? I'm always wrestling with my stylist to give me blocky, chunky, visible lines. Seriously, I just want Dyke Hair. Fuck Richard Spencer, we had that hair first!

IS2G Berlin's caryatids are even sassier than Vienna's, like, these Damen are totally "hey babe, got a light?"

https://traurigedamen.tumblr.com/post/185614248138/grunderzeitfroufrou-berlins-sauciest-caryatids

LOL, I have to share this - I just went to the chemist to pick up my ~Hormones~ and I totally just got "Sir"-ed in the queue? When the chemist realised what I was picking up, she was *so* embarrassed and apologised profusely for it, and couldn't seem to understand why I was so absolutely delighted and overjoyed to be "Sir"-ed?

(I don't know if it's Lockdown and constantly being masked up in public, but recently I have been confusing people - in particular small children - a *LOT*. This is the third time in 2 weeks? Even though my hair is longer than it's been in years, and I haven't even been bothering with a binder coz it's too hot, I am being gendered very differently in publicly since masks became mandatory.)

But yeah, hair changes face shape so much. I had a pompadour last summer, and I looked like a different person?

Not gonna lie, for years I've been getting my haircut models from fuckyeahandrogynousgirls.tumblr.com.

I've been looking at clippers, but I'm convinced that if I start cutting mine own hair I'm going to end up looking like this:

https://64.media.tumblr.com/e1ac862671bc69d09f70b8fb2cec23f2/tumblr_pvtl1yTQAW1rjw8sqo1_500.gif

(I mean, why not, I've been shamelessly ripping off their other haircuts for years.)

I think Sarahell is right that if you get clippers with guides, you can choose the length you want, and where. I have faith in you!

I feel like I am taking up space intended for others just by posting on this thread

. . . and yet you do it anyway? When you are stomping around here, it impacts MY sense of "safe space." So I'm out until you are.

Quincie, I’ve been unfailingly polite to you for the past several years. In return, you’ve thrown gendered insults and accusations.

I am convinced that there is literally nothing I can do to make you feel any differently about me. So, you know, you are welcome to do whatever you need to do to feel comfortable. Bye!

I’m looking at some Wahl clippers with brightly coloured attachments in rainbow colours. Sarahell, In Orbit, what kind do you use? Do you have opinions on Wahl as a brand? GQ rated them “good for beginners” which I need.

I have Walh corded (not cordless) clippers, sadly with plain old black plastic attachments. Would have preferred more festive colors but there ya go. They work great! Have no other experience with alternatives tho.

fades are tricky! ... I am sure even gabbneb would appreciate the effort lol

― sarahell, Thursday, July 30, 2020 11:51 AM

i loled

also no one's "stomping around"? discomfort does not mean you aren't safe, and the calls might be coming from inside the house

Roxy, please leave it.

I appreciate the sentiment, but really? The information that someone dislikes me so intensely, that I make them uncomfortable? Is valuable information. It helps inform my interactions with them. I would rather just know if someone feels that way. Like, no, I do not feel it is my place to leave an online space that is one of the few long-term supports available in my life right now? But also, I can be aware of that discomfort, and make a decision not to engage with or trouble that person in other spaces.

I am having ~so many feelings~ about the musician / groupie / "girls as treats" power structures being discussed in multiple spaces - like, I feel I have so much to add to that conversation? Like, how can we do this in a way that lampshades the power structures in the entertainment industry as a site of fantasy - but that doesn't a) shame the desires and fantasies of the "girls" in question (how do I recconcile these conversations with the fact that 14 year old me would totally have fucked the shit out of, e.g. David Bowie, had I ever had a chance?) yet b) does not indulge those lazybad 'any man in this position would do the same' generalisations. (Honestly? And people think *I'm* a misandrist?) Abuse is a function of power. Misogynist structures exist to keep power in the hands of some genders, but not others. It's nothing inherent in the category of "man" or "men". But desire is a form of power, and the entire entertainment industry is based around the commodification of fans' desire.

But wow, given recent experiences, do I not want to risk venturing anything on open ILX that could be open to being misinterpreted.

got it <3

I am having ~so many feelings~ about the musician / groupie / "girls as treats" power structures being discussed in multiple spaces

same though maybe different contexts (maybe not idk). i've been following the epstein stuff really intensely and it took me a while to figure out how badly and directly it was impacting my mental health. i have OCD which (often) thrives on feelings and thoughts of not having control, and my god the layers of having no control involved in that thing and also involved in just living in the world as a survivor, as a woman, as a poor, whatever. i've not been doing great mentally lately in general, and returning to ilx is probs like, a manifestation of that and also categorically not helping it

also i'm sorry i even brought that shit up (epstein) in this space, i tbh don't even want to talk about it and hope we can go back to talking about haircuts

yeah same :( i also self-destructively engage with this material that gives me waking nightmares and then wonder why i feel so awful. i would throw myself into work but that is very tentative at the moment and with the social isolation of ronatimes i just have very few places to turn.
i should avoid turning to threads about sexual harassment and abuse! that is what i should do.

Aw, I'm sorry you're having those feelings and experiences, Roxy, even though I'm always happy to see you on here, I know this is not always the greatest space for any of us. But also, this is one of the few spaces (the "no boys" thread) where we can always engage with people who are just like, "yeah, I get it, I totally get it!" and that is such a huge relief, and source of comfort and solidarity that helps counteract all the doomscrolling and the online OCD scratching at the bad shit (I get it, I so get it!)

LL, I always appreciate whenever you turn up on one of those threads, and just bring such calm, reasonable, sense - but I also recognise how much that must cost you, mentally.

Haircuts - I've just ordered the rainbow Wahl and I just need to go out into the 35 degree heat to go and pick it up.

the current heat and humidity has been oppressive and very sad for my hair

Will no one stop this hot damn climate change from oppressing our poor sad hair, dammit!

It was 36 degrees out there. Thirty Six of your earth degrees. That's just unacceptable.

i have OCD which (often) thrives on feelings and thoughts of not having control, and my god the layers of having no control involved in that thing

I don't think I have strong OCD tendencies but I was OCD-ish about covid news from around the world from sometime in Jan/Feb, and then when the devastation broke all around us I was actually able to stop doom-scrolling because the worst had kinda happened?

Now I'm just trying to live and cut my hair and grow food and get in water.

solidarity gyac

This was me actually for a while, and I did have health anxiety that sent me to the doctor on multiple occasions years before I was ever diagnosed. Feels like validation, in a way?

I am autistic, so it's sometimes really hard to separate out 'OCD tendencies' from 'executive function at 0, cannot achieve state change from current activity'.

Combine that with rona-based social isolation, where literally any social contact, even 'squabbling with people on the interwebs' feels like a boost to the brain chemicals, and that is a total recipe for being unable to stop the scrolling.

(LOL, I literally deactivated my twitter a few days ago, in a desperate attempt to try to stop the constant rat-like cage-pacing which was both alleviation of and cause of lots of the anxiety, but... here I am back on ILX instead ;_;)

Like, how can we do this in a way that lampshades the power structures in the entertainment industry as a site of fantasy - but that doesn't a) shame the desires and fantasies of the "girls" in question

You should contribute if you feel up to it! I was actually thinking of you the other day when I was being interviewed by a journalist friend about my experiences with this stuff. ... Anyway, I went in.

part of that interview was about "toxic masculinity" -- and this goes back to what we were talking about earlier w/r/t queerness and gender -- and I told my friend that, in the context of male dominated cultures where "toxic masculinity" plays a major role, it isn't just cis-men that can practice it. Like, during the time period I was being interviewed about, I was one of the only cis-female venue-operators in the scene, and those were my, lol, soft butch years ... because I felt the need to present as male and assume this masculine behavior and mindset in order to "fit in" or "comply with community standards" ... because it's the dominant culture, toxic masculinity and masculinity, in general, is not just the province of cis-men ... similar to how "white supremacy" is something that blacks/POC can internalize and practice, even though they aren't white.

Yeah, thanks for bringing up those points, they are very salient!

I think I need to cogitate and think on it more. There was another thread on this previously, like more of a discussions / "what can be done" type thread that I so nearly jumped in on. To try to say, "these industries are in the business of commodifying sexual desire; you cannot separate desire from the basic structure of their existence. The power structures are bad and can become intensely abusive, because power corrupts, but this whole thing is predicated on selling sex, selling the illusion of intimacy" (my friend who invented crowdfunding, said she took the entire model from the pornographic industry, that the very basic idea was not selling music, but selling intimacy.)

You can address the power structures and the imbalances, but you *have* to acknowledge the forces of desire at work here. Desire is complicated.

But as soon as you say "desire is complicated" it's like you are wading straight into the dirty business of making excuses for rapists and abusers, whether you intend to or not.

x-post will probably think on that, too

hahah also, when a band comes through and starts loading in their gear, and asks to talk to the sound person ... this is what I reasoned ... they are more likely to respect someone wearing a black band t-shirt, dickies, and combat boots as opposed to someone wearing a cute dress and make-up. ... Still though, some of them really struggled with the fact that the sound person was a woman. ... Even the most entrenched ones "got it" when they first saw me and I was actually setting up the PA.

B -- sorry, I was typing the other thing while you posted -- and the thread itself, it also gets into different types of fandom, like -- I don't want to dredge up the gazillion different discussions about "how we talk about the music we like and why we like it" ... but it often confuses me when I see so many people posting about music they like devoid of that sex/desire / intimacy motivation that shaped a lot of why I like what I like.

because I felt the need to present as male and assume this masculine behavior and mindset in order to "fit in" or "comply with community standards" ... because it's the dominant culture, toxic masculinity and masculinity, in general, is not just the province of cis-men ... similar to how "white supremacy" is something that blacks/POC can internalize and practice, even though they aren't white.

This is why I want every man, woman and genderqueer on the planet (or at least ~The West~) to read Down Girl by Kate Manne. Misogyny is not just a thing that "men", cis or otherwise, do. It is a system that wraps up *everyone* in its internal logic, unless you take constant and vigilant steps to avoid it, fight it, counter it. That many women (cis and trans women) can internalise it completely, not to mention trans men and sometimes enbies. Often, the *only* power that seems available to cis women in particular, within the structure of male supremacy, is to conform to the standards of misogyny - either by becoming impossibly perfectly feminine and weaponising femininity against women who are less feminine; or by invoking the ~Laddette~ and playing masculinity harder than the boys (lord knows I did) back in the 90s - even though the small power one can access through playing that loophole girl is *always* on sufferance, can always be revoked at any time, and *will* be revoked if you ever actually challenge male supremacy in any meaningful way.

I don't wanna talk about misogyny any more, I want to talk about shagging pop stars and collecting dick like rare seven inches, because I was never cute enough to be part of that scene, but wow, was I fascinated by it?