Abolish the Police

people arguing "what could be worse?" than the current state of policing in the U.S. are being a bit disingenuous. ... there are plenty of names on the BLM list that were not killed by cops, but by racist civilians. If you look at the history of the KKK as well ... there is a long, gross history of black people being murdered by cops and by non-cops alike. I am not saying this to defend cops, but just to point out that by abolishing the police you are going to remove racist violence.

*not* going to remove etc., yes?

* you are not going to remove racist violence ... whoever brought up "nextdoor" upthread is otm -- we still have the problem of racism and other bigotry that exists in this country. The one "positive" aspect of professional policing is that there are rules and best practices about how to deal with certain situations that the average freaked out citizen might not know or follow. But, that doesn't have to be done by cops --- but there should be a means to keep people from doing bad things.

there are rules and best practices about how to deal with certain situations

...that aren't followed by the cops either

i guess what i am saying is that we need some equitable form of law enforcement -- but that doesn't have to be cops, but it should be better than just "groups of concerned citizens" because that could be even worse.

there are rules and best practices about how to deal with certain situations

...that aren't followed by the cops either

― sleeve, Saturday, June 6, 2020 12:55 PM (five seconds ago)

yeah, that's the joke ...

oops sorry

don't apologize! i was hoping someone would point that out!

like one of the most cogent arguments in favor of a professional police force is they are specially trained, that they have rules governing their behavior, and there is accountability if they don't follow those rules -- but, as you and others have pointed out -- in practice, this argument is ridiculous because it is far from the truth.

In case these haven't been posted yet. Here's a study that analyzed data before, during, and after the NYPD's 2015 work slowdown to show that reduced policing results in reduced crime (meaner fewer reports of crimes from civilians): https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-017-0211-5

Couldn't that be because the lack of police presence made people less likely to report a crime, rather than made it less likely to happen?

imo the problem with ‘abolish all cops’ as a rhetorical tool is that a bunch of the interim steps you’d likely want to take (cutting police budgets, investing in harm reduction, better mental health resources, decriminalisation of drugs, ADR, a focus on mediation and restitution over incarceration, etc) stand alone as excellent policies without asking anyone to buy into the extremely contentious end goal of removing the whole judicial system. Sticking them under an absolutist banner the majority of people, at present, don’t take seriously, obscures them. You can build a framework that makes ‘abolishing the police’ more tangible without it.

Abolishing the police isn’t necessarily the same as abolishing the judicial system.

You don’t need a standing army in every city to arrest the occasional violent criminal.

Anyway, nuanced policy programs are easier to water down, sell out, and lose support for than three word slogans that capture the imagination. Black lives matter. Abolish the police.

Seems like the best available plan would include disarming most police and reserving the potential use of lethal force to a much smaller force, increasing monitoring and oversight of police activities, imposing strict accountability, forging better policies and giving better training, and increasing social services to increase social stability and provide alternatives to policing.

Couldn't that be because the lack of police presence made people less likely to report a crime, rather than made it less likely to happen?

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Saturday, June 6, 2020 8:06 PM (four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

No. The cops stop people for things that aren't crimes, or under false/lying pretenses, and then arrest and criminalize them. They literally CREATE crimes, and criminals, based on who they stop and how they escalate interactions.

FWIW my wife, who teaches in a high school, says there have been fights that only police were able to break up, including one where a school security guard had her collarbone broken trying. She also says that restorative justice approaches have often been ineffective between high school kids who get into these kinds of fights. I don't think they have a police officer stationed in the school nor do I think she is advocating that, but she is glad to have the police as a last resort.

also in spite of the school to prison pipeline, which is a real thing, the involved kids were not charged or jailed.

xxp ie "looking suspicious" or "fits the description" or "empty your pockets" for no reason (which is against the law btw but who's going to stop them?) and then arrest you for something they find during an illegal search of your person. Or your vehicle.

Or quite frankly just plant fucking evidence on people.

Abolishing police doesn't mean your wife goes to work one day and there's no one who can intervene in a physically dangerous situation. It means that those kids getting in fights are also coming from over-policed communities where people are brutalized by police and broken systems, suffering injustices, having a worse quality of life and widespread PTSD, and it's creating the environment in which they choose violence/conflict. Abolishing the police and the carceral system is about a network of alternatives that are based on completely different assumptions, because they start from the point of view of wanting a different world.

It just seems a little bit like a spend too much time behind the computer hot take to imagine that the police have no legitimate public safety role whatsoever, even if that role should be radically reduced and reshaped.

I just gotta say it's genuinely amazing to see how fast public opinion has turned on this. It didn't even take 2 weeks. Prison abolition is now a tangible, long term political possibility, and defunding the police will be a major issue this election, and probably a "purity test" (ugh) for future candidates.

I think it's great, in all sincerity--reform just doesn't work, and the cops will be empowered by any concessions made.

You want to accuse the thousands on the street for the past week of spending too much time behind the computer?

The “data” supporting that idea always seems to come from very limited studies. Is there any “data” on what happens when you just don’t have a police force in a major city?

flappy it didn’t change in two week! 2014 and BLM happened and when a moment came again it turned out many, many more people were ready to hear the message

“Data-driven decision-making” is a crock of shit anyway.

Maybe you could try reading what people from affected communities have to say, who actually built this framework.

http://mariamekaba.com/

Not everyone from “affected communities” supports abolishing the police. I doubt even a majority do. Which people are the right ones to listen to?

Prison abolition is now a tangible, long term political possibility, and defunding the police will be a major issue this election, and probably a "purity test" (ugh) for future candidates.

Everyone thought this about the progressive wing of the Democrats re: Medicare For All and a wealth tax and stuff a few months ago and now there's like a 60% chance Joe Biden's gonna be President with Jamie Dimon in his cabinet.

https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2020/06/police-abolition-george-floyd/
https://www.autostraddle.com/police-and-prison-abolition-101-a-syllabus-and-faq/

FWIW my wife, who teaches in a high school, says there have been fights that only police were able to break up,

yeah, I've witnessed situations like this -- not in a school setting, but involving angry people under the influence or people suffering from several mental health problems and/or homelessness. Sometimes the cop actually dealt with these things effectively, and sometimes they made them worse.

thank you, in orbit

to J.D.'s point, reducing what we mean by a "police force" to enforcing a couple constitutional issues (perhaps making these forces federal instead of local?) may address this point.

Why are you being pointlessly difficult? "Who are the right ones to listen to" is a dumb question. Why don't you start looking into it and figure out what people are saying and take the time to consider it?

the occasions the cop dealt with the situation effectively and compassionately were definitely nowhere near most of the time

Which people are the right ones to listen to?

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Saturday, June 6, 2020 1:26 PM (three minutes ago)

that's true -- where I live there is a lot of conflict about this, within the black community (as well as other communities of color).

like the other day there was a discussion about undercover cops and cops who aren't from the community vs. those who did grow up here and are straightforward and open about "being a cop" and when they are aligning themselves with their job vs. with their communities. This especially applies to black cops.

“Why don’t you listen to black people” is a cheap rhetorical move that doesn’t address the question. Black people believe many different things.

there is something else wrong with using restorative justice approaches in schools, which is that when it's done the kids go back to the same shit. which is also what happens when you put the kid on probation, so idk. it's like neither available remedy is the problem.

“Abolish the police,” even if you don’t think it’s actually feasible for some reason is a useful starting point for negotiation. That’s how you get to, perhaps, disarmed police.

it also is a semiotic issue in re what does "the police" represent.

Caity Johnstone:

There is not enough gold in the earth’s crust to make the number of olympic medals these people deserve for all the mental gymnastics they are performing to excuse unprovoked, completely unnecessary acts of violence from public employees whose job isn’t even statistically all that dangerous.

https://medium.com/@caityjohnstone/police-and-their-apologists-have-already-lost-the-argument-92b62f353c58

Idk if you'll be able to see all of these, but this was a good explainer of what it might look like not to depend on police for things that they're not trained or prepared or suited for, and which they actively make worse:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CA_CzIZpzZ0/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

“Abolish the police,” even if you don’t think it’s actually feasible for some reason is a useful starting point for negotiation. That’s how you get to, perhaps, disarmed police.

― Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Saturday, June 6, 2020 3:35 PM (three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

FWIW I am closer to “abolish the police” than “eight can’t wait.” I’m not all the way there though. I think you need some kind of last resort, monopoly on force system even if it needs to be dramatically reduced in size, funding and role.

“Why don’t you listen to black people” is a cheap rhetorical move that doesn’t address the question. Black people believe many different things.

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Saturday, June 6, 2020 8:34 PM (four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

So first it's, "I don't want to listen to people who sit behind computers" and then it's "Black people aren't monolithic" (I never said they were though)--is there anyone you actually do trust on this subject or do you just want a potted answer that you can dismiss?

there is something else wrong with using restorative justice approaches in schools, which is that when it's done the kids go back to the same shit. which is also what happens when you put the kid on probation, so idk. it's like neither available remedy is the problem.

― contorted filbert (harbl), Saturday, June 6, 2020 8:35 PM (five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Yes.

oh hey a free book

https://www.versobooks.com/books/2817-the-end-of-policing

re duties/responsibilities given to cops that could be better assigned -- where I live the police are in charge of issuing special event permits for parties / concerts / festivals etc. If you want a one-day alcohol license for a charitable event, you have to get permission from the local PD. This was something the City of Oakland had created a "task force" about after the Ghost Ship Fire and it never went anywhere.

Re police from within the community: I've felt VASTLY different ways about being in rooms full of police officers of different races. At my school, my principal was extremely close with the local police and they were almost uniformly white and bro-y and Blue Lives Matter-y and seemed like EXACTLY that guy that knocks ppl around and believes in "law and order" above all.

But in the majority Black neighborhood where I live, when we have meetings with the local precinct and we serve potluck dinners to a room of cops who are mostly Black or POC, it's genuinely pleasant. Totally different atmosphere.

It's still a broken system. The people sitting down together having dinner are still going to end up unfairly treated if they enter the system for any reason.