oh, so you mean "modern civilization" not the hundreds of thousands of years of hunter gatherers, OK.
IMO that history shows the problems that resulted from the "first fence" more than anything:
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/560830.My_Name_is_Chellis_and_I_m_in_Recovery_from_Western_Civilization
― sleeve, Friday, 5 June 2020 16:36 (three years ago) link
not only is it broadly modern civilization but it's far from a continuous history and most police forces in their modern organization, powers and tactics aren't much older than the mid 19th century
on the other hand even if they were ordained by god in the garden of Eden abolish the fuckers
― hip posts without flaggadocio (Noodle Vague), Friday, 5 June 2020 16:38 (three years ago) link
oh ok so we should build a neoprimitive society with 7 billion people on the planet, that should go well
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Friday, 5 June 2020 16:39 (three years ago) link
well the 19th century was when much of the world's population urbanized
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Friday, 5 June 2020 16:40 (three years ago) link
this isn't a reformist thread
NV otm
they are agents of capital and should be shown no remorse or mercy
― sleeve, Friday, 5 June 2020 16:40 (three years ago) link
as i said, the police as constituted today are very much a function of the capitalist societies that introduced them, form something else by all means but the police institutions we have were rotten at conception
― hip posts without flaggadocio (Noodle Vague), Friday, 5 June 2020 16:41 (three years ago) link
and they don't keep us safe, either
― sleeve, Friday, 5 June 2020 16:41 (three years ago) link
this seems as good a place as any to vent: my local solidarity rally tomorrow is not allowing anti-police signs. I wish them the best with it but I'm going to pass. Small city in Canada.
― maffew12, Friday, 5 June 2020 16:41 (three years ago) link
there's probably other threads for cautiously liking the police tbf
― hip posts without flaggadocio (Noodle Vague), Friday, 5 June 2020 16:42 (three years ago) link
Without first dismantling capitalism, there's no practical difference between abolishing the police and privatising it.
I don't think short-term commitment to abolition can be used as a gatekeeping device for conversations about how to move forward from where we are now.
― ShariVari, Friday, 5 June 2020 16:43 (three years ago) link
it is true that we must first seize the means of production before the withering away of the state can occur
― contorted filbert (harbl), Friday, 5 June 2020 16:46 (three years ago) link
anyway the specific bone of contention was that the police are not a natural offshoot of the state of nature who must always be with us as sinful fallen humans
― hip posts without flaggadocio (Noodle Vague), Friday, 5 June 2020 16:49 (three years ago) link
thank you, yes that is what I was saying
― sleeve, Friday, 5 June 2020 16:50 (three years ago) link
You know that old canard, "It's easy to criticize the police but you'll soon change your tune when you actually need them"? Well, I think I've said it here before but whenever I've actually needed the police - break-ins, muggings etc - they have proved to be completely useless and generally given the impression they couldn't give a flying fuck.
― Captain Beeftweet (Tom D.), Friday, 5 June 2020 16:50 (three years ago) link
Add laziness and ineptitude to their list of sins.
― Captain Beeftweet (Tom D.), Friday, 5 June 2020 16:51 (three years ago) link
here here, NV. I will have to work to have this discussion more, locally, soon.
― maffew12, Friday, 5 June 2020 16:53 (three years ago) link
ok just spitballing here but what if we abolished the police
― k*r*n koltrane (Simon H.), Friday, 5 June 2020 16:54 (three years ago) link
hm interesting expand on that
― all cats are beautiful (silby), Friday, 5 June 2020 16:54 (three years ago) link
the first time i got burgled the first 15 minutes of interaction with the cops was persuading them we hadn't done it ourselves cos we lived on a "bad" estate
― hip posts without flaggadocio (Noodle Vague), Friday, 5 June 2020 16:54 (three years ago) link
love to burgle myself
― k*r*n koltrane (Simon H.), Friday, 5 June 2020 17:00 (three years ago) link
in the US last year, the $ seized by cops in (largely illegal imo) forfeitures was greater than the amount lost in actual burglaries
I’m seeing people ask things like “But if there are no police who will go after RAPISTS???” and well I have some very bad news for those folks— andi zeisler (@andizeisler) June 5, 2020
― sleeve, Friday, 5 June 2020 17:06 (three years ago) link
the only problem w not having any cops is who will we arrest the cops with
― k*r*n koltrane (Simon H.), Friday, 5 June 2020 17:10 (three years ago) link
Thank you, sleeve.
― There's more Italy than necessary. (in orbit), Friday, 5 June 2020 18:14 (three years ago) link
I prefer the defund/shrink approach to abolish.
man alive i know you're p well read so i'm surprised to see you attack police abolitionism with...the way most police abolitionist orgs describe the path to abolishing the police
― methinks dababy doth bop shit too much (m bison), Friday, 5 June 2020 18:26 (three years ago) link
I’m definitely not well read and um, yeah, exactly.
― brimstead, Friday, 5 June 2020 19:17 (three years ago) link
yes, whether you see it as a reform/end in itself or as a step on the path to abolishment it's an excellent set of demands people should be able to get behind
― k*r*n koltrane (Simon H.), Friday, 5 June 2020 19:19 (three years ago) link
I don't know a single person who has ever had a positive experience with the police
Part of public support for the police is misplaced liking of actors in endless cop shows, the most insidious form of propaganda out there. Abolish TV studios
― anvil, Friday, 5 June 2020 19:34 (three years ago) link
endless cop shows, the most insidious form of propaganda out there
otm. going all the way back to The Andy Griffith Show and Dragnet.
― A is for (Aimless), Friday, 5 June 2020 19:59 (three years ago) link
and Deputy Dawg
― hip posts without flaggadocio (Noodle Vague), Friday, 5 June 2020 20:01 (three years ago) link
anybody want to comment on the abolishment and replacement of the Royal Ulster Constabulary?
― lukas, Friday, 5 June 2020 20:05 (three years ago) link
fine idea. I endorse it.
― A is for (Aimless), Friday, 5 June 2020 20:06 (three years ago) link
mostly "lol, fuck the RUC"
― hip posts without flaggadocio (Noodle Vague), Friday, 5 June 2020 20:07 (three years ago) link
It was weird to open this thread and not see a gang of yank libs calling abolitionists immature dumb idiots who are probably 11 years old or something but I take that more as a sign of the moment than any kind of indication that this isn’t Chinatown
― What fash heil is this? (wins), Friday, 5 June 2020 20:35 (three years ago) link
This was a Good Thing and ultimately necessary; the RUC as a ‘brand’ was toxic for too many normal people by the GFA
― Master of Treacle, Friday, 5 June 2020 21:26 (three years ago) link
Even American police forces have nothing on those guys.
― Captain Beeftweet (Tom D.), Friday, 5 June 2020 22:04 (three years ago) link
came up with more ideas for police reform that will be as ineffective as anything proposed by 8 Can't Wait pic.twitter.com/eK9Aj6KpMA— ben wasserman (@benwassertweet) June 4, 2020
― contorted filbert (harbl), Friday, 5 June 2020 23:48 (three years ago) link
thoughts and prayers is a weak ending, "make guns too big to hold" and "no ice cream before bed" have I Think You Should Leave vibes tho
― all cats are beautiful (silby), Friday, 5 June 2020 23:50 (three years ago) link
yeah, i would like to remove thoughts and prayers from the platform
― contorted filbert (harbl), Saturday, 6 June 2020 00:03 (three years ago) link
no fuck it abolish the police
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Saturday, 6 June 2020 01:47 (three years ago) link
anyone wanna give me talking point to use on a friend who thinks that defunding the police and dismantling the unions "sets an anti-labor precedent"
(note: he is a 50-something hippie lifelong bus drive diehard union member who puts labor first)
― sleeve, Saturday, 6 June 2020 02:19 (three years ago) link
I have to admit I have a tough time on that point bc it feels like teachers' unions will be next in line
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Saturday, 6 June 2020 02:30 (three years ago) link
If we abolish the police wouldn’t they just be replaced by private security forces who would not even be *nominally* required to protect the safety of the public (vs private property)?
― treeship., Saturday, 6 June 2020 02:31 (three years ago) link
ask your diehard union friend whether it is more important that unarmed black men die or that effectively addressing their murders "sets an anti-labor precedent", because he has to recognize that these are the choices. it might resonate to ask "which side are you on?"
― A is for (Aimless), Saturday, 6 June 2020 02:33 (three years ago) link
I think we need to transform how policing works and many of the social problems we see as police issues should be handled by social workers. Military training of cops needs to be banned outright; de-escalation must be required.
I think we should create a model of criminal justice that emphasizes rehabilitation and reintegration into society. Everyone who is released from jail should have a job lined up with a living wage.
I think a lot of things. One thing I don’t think is that we should have a weaker public sector.
― treeship., Saturday, 6 June 2020 02:34 (three years ago) link
btw, I helped to organize my fellow school bus drivers from an non-union shop into a unionized bargaining unit.
― A is for (Aimless), Saturday, 6 June 2020 02:35 (three years ago) link
Maybe existing police unions should be dismantled because they support a horrific status quo, who knows. Police abolition seems like a meaningless phrase to me because there are rapes and murders in america and we need to have someone address these issues.
― treeship., Saturday, 6 June 2020 02:36 (three years ago) link
the tru pro labor version is that cops are class traitors who suppress other workers.
― methinks dababy doth bop shit too much (m bison), Saturday, 6 June 2020 02:40 (three years ago) link
^ yes
― contorted filbert (harbl), Saturday, 6 June 2020 02:42 (three years ago) link
it would probably violate various laws to eliminate police unions but they could be expelled by their affiliates and lose resources. i can't see how that would harm teachers or other public sector unions in any way.
― contorted filbert (harbl), Saturday, 6 June 2020 02:46 (three years ago) link
do other unions actually kill people? i mean, not through negligence. like in their day-to-day
― Nhex, Saturday, 6 June 2020 02:47 (three years ago) link
really cannot recommend this newsletter highly enoughhttps://substack.com/profile/9600332-alec-karakatsanis
― Tracer Hand, Friday, 19 August 2022 14:29 (one year ago) link
Idk about this one - https://newrepublic.com/article/167627/defund-social-workers
Tbh it’s not that there aren’t reasonable points in there but a pretty godawful headline and opening.
― JoeStork, Saturday, 24 September 2022 01:03 (one year ago) link
"Then Louise Casey’s second report into the Met is due in March, and is expected to be as damning, if not more so, than the first report, which found huge failings in how the force investigates officers. It led Rowley to admit that hundreds of racist, misogynist and corrupt officers have been allowed to continue to serve in the Met"
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jan/16/met-police-david-carrick-one-woman-act-of-bravery-abuse
― xyzzzz__, Monday, 16 January 2023 13:50 (one year ago) link
Met Police commissioner Mark Rowley says the force was investigating 1,000 sexual/domestic abuse claims involving about 800 of its officers - @BBCNews reports.— Pippa Crerar (@PippaCrerar) January 16, 2023
― xyzzzz__, Monday, 16 January 2023 19:50 (one year ago) link
In the UK police are to be given more powers to crack down on protest.
Worth repeating that police do not require an DBS certificate to work, which virtually every other job that comes in contact with the public does, because apparently it’s fine for them to vet themselves https://t.co/6gpPWIZY4W— thierry ennui (@alexeptable) January 25, 2023
― xyzzzz__, Wednesday, 25 January 2023 17:19 (one year ago) link
i didn't know that. unfuckingbelievable
― Kieth Encounter (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 25 January 2023 18:00 (one year ago) link
Some police officers came round to my friend's house after their downstairs neighbour died and they had to bust in. One officer took her housemate's number – she thought for official purposes. No, instead he texted her 'Hey, how are you?'— Moya Lothian-McLean (@mlothianmclean) January 26, 2023
― xyzzzz__, Thursday, 26 January 2023 10:44 (one year ago) link
The 363-page report condemns the force as institutionally racist, misogynist and homophobic. Staff routinely experience sexism, it adds. There are racist officers and staff, and a "deep-seated homophobia" in the organisation.In London, Baroness Casey says policing by consent - the idea ordinary people trust the police to act honourably and be held accountable - is broken.The report says leadership teams at the top of the Met have been in denial for decades, and there has been a systemic failure to root out discriminatory and bullying behaviour.
In London, Baroness Casey says policing by consent - the idea ordinary people trust the police to act honourably and be held accountable - is broken.
The report says leadership teams at the top of the Met have been in denial for decades, and there has been a systemic failure to root out discriminatory and bullying behaviour.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65015479
― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 21 March 2023 07:11 (one year ago) link
Guess what happens next?
― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 21 March 2023 08:41 (one year ago) link
First the inquiry, then the crime
― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 21 March 2023 10:52 (one year ago) link
Who'd have thought it, eh?
― Maggot Bairn (Tom D.), Tuesday, 21 March 2023 10:56 (one year ago) link
London Evening Standard crowing about how they're gonna put undercover officers to uncover bad behaviour in the met. Yeah, that'll do it.
― Daniel_Rf, Tuesday, 21 March 2023 10:58 (one year ago) link
maybe there's a few good apples
― satori enabler (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 21 March 2023 11:30 (one year ago) link
There is always another view.
The influence of what sorry? pic.twitter.com/CvhJvC6qeU— Tom Williams (@shirleymush) March 21, 2023
― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 21 March 2023 11:36 (one year ago) link
Fucking lunatic
― piedro àlamodevar (wins), Tuesday, 21 March 2023 11:40 (one year ago) link
I'm sorry to say we won't be able to hold the Metropolitan Police Commissioner to account tonight for the Casey Report's findings of institutional racism, misogyny and homophobia because his press office have again excluded #C4News— Krishnan Guru-Murthy (@krishgm) March 21, 2023
― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 21 March 2023 16:36 (one year ago) link
It's astonishing he's still in post.. the stuff he's been talking about as responses are such weak-piss penny-ante crap. He seems completely out to lunch!
― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 21 March 2023 17:44 (one year ago) link
almost wish khan hadn't finished cressida dick because she should be front and centre eating shit for this. except she would just brazen it out like she always does. then again if you were in charge of an operation where someone gets murdered and it doesn't so much as pause your rise to the top why would you ever expect consequences.
― oscar bravo, Tuesday, 21 March 2023 20:43 (one year ago) link
The Irvo Otieno story is another example of how it isn’t just that police aren’t trained to be mental health workers, but people with mental health problems are despised and feared in the US. Truly sickening country
― Goose Bigelow, Fowl Gigolo (the table is the table), Wednesday, 22 March 2023 11:41 (one year ago) link