Abolish the Police

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police#History xp

oh, so you mean "modern civilization" not the hundreds of thousands of years of hunter gatherers, OK.

IMO that history shows the problems that resulted from the "first fence" more than anything:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/560830.My_Name_is_Chellis_and_I_m_in_Recovery_from_Western_Civilization

not only is it broadly modern civilization but it's far from a continuous history and most police forces in their modern organization, powers and tactics aren't much older than the mid 19th century

on the other hand even if they were ordained by god in the garden of Eden abolish the fuckers

oh ok so we should build a neoprimitive society with 7 billion people on the planet, that should go well

well the 19th century was when much of the world's population urbanized

this isn't a reformist thread

NV otm

they are agents of capital and should be shown no remorse or mercy

as i said, the police as constituted today are very much a function of the capitalist societies that introduced them, form something else by all means but the police institutions we have were rotten at conception

and they don't keep us safe, either

this seems as good a place as any to vent: my local solidarity rally tomorrow is not allowing anti-police signs. I wish them the best with it but I'm going to pass. Small city in Canada.

there's probably other threads for cautiously liking the police tbf

Without first dismantling capitalism, there's no practical difference between abolishing the police and privatising it.

I don't think short-term commitment to abolition can be used as a gatekeeping device for conversations about how to move forward from where we are now.

it is true that we must first seize the means of production before the withering away of the state can occur

anyway the specific bone of contention was that the police are not a natural offshoot of the state of nature who must always be with us as sinful fallen humans

thank you, yes that is what I was saying

You know that old canard, "It's easy to criticize the police but you'll soon change your tune when you actually need them"? Well, I think I've said it here before but whenever I've actually needed the police - break-ins, muggings etc - they have proved to be completely useless and generally given the impression they couldn't give a flying fuck.

Add laziness and ineptitude to their list of sins.

here here, NV. I will have to work to have this discussion more, locally, soon.

ok just spitballing here but what if we abolished the police

hm interesting expand on that

the first time i got burgled the first 15 minutes of interaction with the cops was persuading them we hadn't done it ourselves cos we lived on a "bad" estate

love to burgle myself

in the US last year, the $ seized by cops in (largely illegal imo) forfeitures was greater than the amount lost in actual burglaries

I’m seeing people ask things like “But if there are no police who will go after RAPISTS???” and well I have some very bad news for those folks

— andi zeisler (@andizeisler) June 5, 2020

the only problem w not having any cops is who will we arrest the cops with

Thank you, sleeve.

I prefer the defund/shrink approach to abolish.

man alive i know you're p well read so i'm surprised to see you attack police abolitionism with...the way most police abolitionist orgs describe the path to abolishing the police

I’m definitely not well read and um, yeah, exactly.

yes, whether you see it as a reform/end in itself or as a step on the path to abolishment it's an excellent set of demands people should be able to get behind

I don't know a single person who has ever had a positive experience with the police

Part of public support for the police is misplaced liking of actors in endless cop shows, the most insidious form of propaganda out there. Abolish TV studios

endless cop shows, the most insidious form of propaganda out there

otm. going all the way back to The Andy Griffith Show and Dragnet.

and Deputy Dawg

anybody want to comment on the abolishment and replacement of the Royal Ulster Constabulary?

fine idea. I endorse it.

mostly "lol, fuck the RUC"

It was weird to open this thread and not see a gang of yank libs calling abolitionists immature dumb idiots who are probably 11 years old or something but I take that more as a sign of the moment than any kind of indication that this isn’t Chinatown

anybody want to comment on the abolishment and replacement of the Royal Ulster Constabulary?

This was a Good Thing and ultimately necessary; the RUC as a ‘brand’ was toxic for too many normal people by the GFA

Even American police forces have nothing on those guys.

came up with more ideas for police reform that will be as ineffective as anything proposed by 8 Can't Wait pic.twitter.com/eK9Aj6KpMA

— ben wasserman (@benwassertweet) June 4, 2020

thoughts and prayers is a weak ending, "make guns too big to hold" and "no ice cream before bed" have I Think You Should Leave vibes tho

yeah, i would like to remove thoughts and prayers from the platform

no fuck it abolish the police

anyone wanna give me talking point to use on a friend who thinks that defunding the police and dismantling the unions "sets an anti-labor precedent"

(note: he is a 50-something hippie lifelong bus drive diehard union member who puts labor first)

I have to admit I have a tough time on that point bc it feels like teachers' unions will be next in line

If we abolish the police wouldn’t they just be replaced by private security forces who would not even be *nominally* required to protect the safety of the public (vs private property)?

ask your diehard union friend whether it is more important that unarmed black men die or that effectively addressing their murders "sets an anti-labor precedent", because he has to recognize that these are the choices. it might resonate to ask "which side are you on?"

I think we need to transform how policing works and many of the social problems we see as police issues should be handled by social workers. Military training of cops needs to be banned outright; de-escalation must be required.

I think we should create a model of criminal justice that emphasizes rehabilitation and reintegration into society. Everyone who is released from jail should have a job lined up with a living wage.

I think a lot of things. One thing I don’t think is that we should have a weaker public sector.

btw, I helped to organize my fellow school bus drivers from an non-union shop into a unionized bargaining unit.

Maybe existing police unions should be dismantled because they support a horrific status quo, who knows. Police abolition seems like a meaningless phrase to me because there are rapes and murders in america and we need to have someone address these issues.

the tru pro labor version is that cops are class traitors who suppress other workers.

^ yes

it would probably violate various laws to eliminate police unions but they could be expelled by their affiliates and lose resources. i can't see how that would harm teachers or other public sector unions in any way.

i didn't know that. unfuckingbelievable

Some police officers came round to my friend's house after their downstairs neighbour died and they had to bust in. One officer took her housemate's number – she thought for official purposes. No, instead he texted her 'Hey, how are you?'

— Moya Lothian-McLean (@mlothianmclean) January 26, 2023

The 363-page report condemns the force as institutionally racist, misogynist and homophobic. Staff routinely experience sexism, it adds. There are racist officers and staff, and a "deep-seated homophobia" in the organisation.

In London, Baroness Casey says policing by consent - the idea ordinary people trust the police to act honourably and be held accountable - is broken.

The report says leadership teams at the top of the Met have been in denial for decades, and there has been a systemic failure to root out discriminatory and bullying behaviour.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65015479

Guess what happens next?

First the inquiry, then the crime

Who'd have thought it, eh?

London Evening Standard crowing about how they're gonna put undercover officers to uncover bad behaviour in the met. Yeah, that'll do it.

maybe there's a few good apples

There is always another view.

The influence of what sorry? pic.twitter.com/CvhJvC6qeU

— Tom Williams (@shirleymush) March 21, 2023

Fucking lunatic

I'm sorry to say we won't be able to hold the Metropolitan Police Commissioner to account tonight for the Casey Report's findings of institutional racism, misogyny and homophobia because his press office have again excluded #C4News

— Krishnan Guru-Murthy (@krishgm) March 21, 2023

It's astonishing he's still in post.. the stuff he's been talking about as responses are such weak-piss penny-ante crap. He seems completely out to lunch!

almost wish khan hadn't finished cressida dick because she should be front and centre eating shit for this. except she would just brazen it out like she always does. then again if you were in charge of an operation where someone gets murdered and it doesn't so much as pause your rise to the top why would you ever expect consequences.

The Irvo Otieno story is another example of how it isn’t just that police aren’t trained to be mental health workers, but people with mental health problems are despised and feared in the US. Truly sickening country

Gotta make sure the dogs are ok while tear gassing humans ✨ pic.twitter.com/K8uRjxm0Vo

— Hannah Riley (@hannahcrileyy) November 13, 2023

(as seen in https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/at-emory-university-cops-are-using-a-sledgehammer-to-crack-a-nut/)

#HAPPENINGNOW: An incredible scene and proud moment as we have assisted @CityCollegeNY in restoring order on campus, culminating in raising Old Glory once again on their campus flagpole. 🇺🇸@NYPDPC @NYPD1stDep @NYPDChiefOfDept @NYPDChiefPatrol @NYPDnews pic.twitter.com/XZWFmvXcUs

— NYPD Deputy Commissioner, Operations Kaz Daughtry (@NYPDDaughtry) May 1, 2024

https://news.wttw.com/2024/05/02/cpd-officers-probed-ties-proud-boys-and-oath-keepers-won-t-be-disciplined-department-says

https://www.thestranger.com/cops/2024/05/02/79494412/investigation-finds-seattle-police-officer-violated-policy-by-using-racial-slur

it’s the attempted stolen valor of Australia that rankles the most

"I resent my dog" is pretty amazing

seriously messed up story: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2024-05-08/l-a-county-approves-27m-in-settlements-for-shooting-wrongful-conviction-cases

i am on team "ACAB". it's a radical (though popular) political position - radical politics does get seen as very ideological and uncompromising, and i'm just not that ideologically motivated. i'm politically because it's the position that's most likely to benefit me and the people i care about. i haven't read like the conquest of bread or shit like that, i haven't read marx. i don't see why i'd need to read them, like, i'm living this shit, what the fuck do i care about what karl marx has to say about my material conditions? i pick up some of the jargon from memes and discord chats. i think the memes are funny. i guess some people could see that as superficial but honestly, so many of my most radical positions are just me saying things that seem completely fucking obvious. if someone needs someone to explain to them why capitalism is bad, that's not me. i will explain the most basic shit about my gender identity at length over and over again, but that's mostly because it's my autistic special interest.

what was i saying? right, so when i talk about cops, there is actually a great deal of compromise or i guess what the kids call "nuance" in there. i think some moderates look at "ACAB" people and think we want to guillotine all the cops and let maniacs with chainsaws run riot in the streets. that would make a pretty cool anime but it's not totally the life i want. like the ideas i have about justice and community aren't really compatible with "policing". no, i don't have a better alternative.

people who, in general, benefit from policing - them i can see why they wouldn't want the abolition of police. i mean to them i do have to appeal to some abstract ideal of justice, argue that the current system of "justice" is not equal and not equitable, and that it cannot be _made_ equal and equitable through piecemeal reforms. basically it's a _values-based_ argument.

Agree but the way the oppressive institution exerts its power is through individuals so in real life it's pretty impossible to keep those separate.

― Daniel_Rf

sure, if you look at it in an all-or-nothing sense. in practice, it's more complicated than that. i was talking to someone recently... i can't remember who or where. almost certainly a queer person. they were talking about a respected queer community member who did a lot of really good work and who, a long time ago, used to be a cop. they cover that up. in the queer community i'm in, being a cop is possibly worse than being an actual murderer. it's seen as something only Bad People do. and to me, like...

my cousin is a cop and I'm very embarrassed about it. shit happens I guess

― Colonel Poo

i mean i've seen memes that say "all cops are bastards, even your cousin" or whatever, and maybe? but i also don't care, it doesn't like, reflect on you as a person that your cousin is doing a Bad Thing. it's like to me it's the principle of _non-identification_. the question is if someone in your life does do something like that, what's the best way to behave in that situation? a queer person i know who i think well of says "i'm thinking of becoming a cop", i don't think it's practical to say "oh well you're a horrible person, why did i ever talk to you?" and some people would do that. i mean it's a decision i'm personally strongly opposed to, but it's their decision. thinking about doing something, talking about doing something, _wanting_ to do something, i mean, to me there's a pretty bright line between that and actually doing it.

this lesbian cop i know. i mean i'm not gonna go out and denounce her to the community as being terrible because she's a cop. i'm going to listen to her, listen to her talk about the hatred she gets, and i'm not gonna tell her that you know what, maybe she deserves that, because what good does it do for me to say that? like yeah i got my beliefs but it's her fucking life. what i am gonna do is i'm gonna not get too close to her. i'm not gonna date a fucking cop! i kinda love, there's actually a whole song in the musical "fiorello!" where one of the characters is agonizing about how terrible it is that she's fallen for a cop. i mean, that's fucking relatable to me.

like the other thing is there's this whole question of what _is_ a cop. professionally, my career involves investigating health insurance fraud.

am i personally violating any of my moral principles by doing my job? nah. what i'm doing personally is good. systemically, is what i'm doing "good"? fuck no. i'm working for a private health insurance company affiliated with a transphobic religious organization. yeah i fucking hate that. professionally, i go to meetings where the FBI are there. i go to conferences and half of the sessions are presented by ex-cops and man i fucking _hate_ that. i've stopped going to those conferences, because i don't fucking want to get my CEUs by listening to some fucking cop. i could quit, i guess. i haven't quit. i'm not fully living my values, my principles, by continuing to work for that company.

i make compromises. i make compromises and i live with the consequences. how do i sleep at night? terribly. awful nightmares. would i sleep better if i quit my job? i doubt it.