thraed of DOJA CAT

Well, Tyler (mentioned earlier) faced significant mainstream pushback/consequences for his lyrics (UK travel ban, etc.). I understand you’re interested in the specific social media dynamic and why certain artists are targeted — but DC’s career doesn’t seem anywhere on its way to being “over” in an actual sense, this is barely even getting mainstream music press. It was trending on Twitter over the weekend for whatever reason, and a few lines addressing it have been added to her Wikipedia page. I guess we’ll see if that escalates or fades.

i feel a lil weird minimizing her actively hanging w white supremacists tho, thats kind of a beyond the pale sort of situation

the-dream is a multiple time physical abuser, just wrote beyonce's verse for megan the stallion remix. nelly is a multiple time alleged rapist, was just given one of the biggest platforms in music to celebrate his legacy. this stuff pops up on twitter now and again so i'm not saying nobody is talking about it... and doja will probably be fine and have a nice career after this. she doesn't have to go but to her own studio sessions to see a prime example of how forgiving the music industry can be. but i'm willing to bet this will follow her in a way those accusations don't follow those other ppl; and yes hanging out in a 4chan chat is bad, but go read christina milian's interview about what it was like to be married to the-dream. maybe he's on your personal cancel list too i have no idea, but that's not rly my point either.

doja should do a lot of soul searching and come out w/ some better thoughts on the matter than what she posted on instagram, i just look around at what a whole lot of other artists (men) are allowed to get away with (not saying i'm not complicit, i don't boycott the-dream) and find phrases like "beyond the pale" a little ridiculous. roddy ricch was arrested for hitting his gf and there was no grand reckoning w/ his past when he hit number 1 like three months ago. is roddy ricch beyond the pale? again doja can answer for her actions but the way this stuff plays out is just not equal.

Her self-hatred runs deep. I'm finding this more depressing than anger-inducing.

― pomenitul, Sunday, May 24, 2020 1:02 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

Yeah this seems to have been primarily a self-destructive, compulsive pattern of behavior, or at least it’s been characterized that way. I think that is why she is coming under scorn; it makes people profoundly uncomfortable, the idea of someone seeking out degredation. It’s harder to categorize than other kinds of “bad” behavior that are aimed at hurting others.

I've been a wee bit concerned at the number of people in the Twittersphere saying she's "not really black" because she's mixed and can pass for white.

I mean, that’s horrifying, but the reason they’re doing that is they want to make an uncomfortable scenario fit a familiar schema. If she is not black, she can just be a racist, and cancelled. If she is, then you have to start thinking about what actually motivated the benavior, and it’s some bleak psychological territory.

I really feel like “cancelling” is secondary here. I hope this woman finds peace with herself and this is what I hope for everyone.

Anger toward her is understandable, though, obviously. I’m sure many feel betrayed by this kind of thing. Idk. It’s a minefield.

otm

yes

so let's go talk about other stuff now

The Tyler comparison is pretty interesting. Her transgression is primarily formed through the prism of extremely online activity and the loneliness and vulnerability that leads people to such spaces. (Spaces which tragically, can only ever serve to augment loneliness and vulnerability.)

Tyler was never isolated in that way. There of course was vulnerability but the whole odd future thing not only insulated him from pressure to personally inhabit an image (being male also helps with that), but also made it so he never felt compelled to deny the existence of a trauma/argument that he was already in the middle of. Everything he did or said was in the context of his "tribe".

Fair or foul, she and she alone has to own what she put out there. But missing from the broader cultural narrative of diabolical hackers, crass memes and vulgar trolls is how the majority that inhabit chan spaces and are probably lost in the same way that she was. Trying to be a part of something that purports to accept them without forcing them to reckon with their insecurities. Something that allows them to feel "among" and seen without having to countenance the extremely shitty tools and frameworks we expect people to use to figure out who they are.

As for the Dindu song? It doesn't say much of anything. She borrows a fraught signifier but lacked the conviction, will or wit to do anything subversive with it. But again that's consistent with her instinctively noncommittal parsing of identity.

lots of good points from jordan above, but to d40s point ... i just feel like the contemporary online alt right isn't just a race thing, those dudes are all in on various forms of domination and oppression including misogyny, and seem to have a disturbing cultural cache with musicians these days (see ariel pink and john maus making music for the sympathetic incel documentary just now, danny l harle on million dollar extreme, etc). feels like part of a new front on the US culture war and so while im not saying that makes the litany of gendered violence receipts provided by jordan above any less bad, i guess i am maybe speculating as to why the doja thing might seem worse/different than just "trolling' to some. and in terms of other similarities to various things rotting our minds these days it also seems connected to the trump/kanye thing

the-dream is a multiple time physical abuser, just wrote beyonce's verse for megan the stallion remix. nelly is a multiple time alleged rapist, was just given one of the biggest platforms in music to celebrate his legacy. this stuff pops up on twitter now and again so i'm not saying nobody is talking about it.

But I can say that as a casual music consumer and not somebody who follows music Twitter neither of these facts are things I knew at all.

sure of course. and there's plenty of logical explanations for that beyond the dynamic i'm describing. but it's also illustrative of my point. one of the inherent flaws of the post-me too discourse is that it requires the building of a vast mental dossier of problematic incidents, and it's unrealistic to expect many people -- even those generally interested in discussing the arts -- to keep up. stans can flourish in this environment because when it comes to the news story that is "doja cat responds to being cancelled" the reporting (what doja cat did) is already out there (via the stans, who created the news story in the first place)

the big thing that frustrated me about this particular incident is that I saw people all over Twitter legitimately asking what Doja did and for details, only to get brush-off responses, like it was this insider knowledge, and you were an asshole if you didn't already know it. It actually took me a while to figure out what the hubbub was about as few people were actually sharing anything helpful about it, or were just sharing the conclusions without sharing any specific details as to what happened.

Most people don't even know what happened, they're just playing Twitter telephone. The same issue arose with regard to Black Dresses and Kaitlyn Aurelia Smith.

A thing occurred and you must now adopt my take on this scandalous thing except I'm not going to tell you what it is because I myself have no idea.

yeah I get sick of the "I'm not going to spoonfeed you, do your own research" responses

Twitter telephone is also famous for fucking up news. the day Kobe died, hundreds of tweeters were claiming (with zero corroboration) that he was the pilot of the helicopter and aggressively arguing with people who suggested there was a separate pilot and Kobe was a passenger, and then they went eerily quiet the moment the news confirmed the latter was true.

Highest paid crisis actor in NBA history iirc.

The thing that’s going to hurt Doja Cat’s longevity isn’t an unearthed 4chan past; it’s not being particularly interesting.

Like, flirting with edgelords 5 years ago is the first thing I’ve seen about her that makes me remember who she is.

the Tolentino thing seems like a pretty strong case of "twitter telephone"

xp her breakout hit was "mooo!" that's something at least

she's apologizing for all of this on instagram live in a shirt that says HENTAI in flames

Where do I get that shirt

i wasn't arguing to 'cancel her' jordan lmao im just saying that i think handwaving flirting w white supremacists online is .. not good

esp since as shes showing in this recent video its not like shes been humbled by any of this, im sure shes just seeing it as another in a line of 'all publicity is good publicity' things & im sure she like tons of ppl on 4chan just see it all as a big joke except when they mean it, so its like ... you literally cant 'shame' that out of someone bc they detach from the consequences of their actions (& per tsrobodo probably dont see their actions as ever having much meaningful agency or effect on the world) (the great irony now being that they're represented by a literal no. 1 pop star)

im not really mad at doja for this or something, more just unsettled by the way this space operates as a like source of fuckd up brainwashing

Based on what I've read, this all seems like pretty fucked up stuff, so i would not seek to take issue with anyone who decided "this artist is no longer for me under any circumstances", but... It does feel to me that at least one fundamental difference between this scandal and the examples j0rds provides above with respect to male artists is not just white supremacy but also... misogyny and domestic violence rarely-if-ever code to the general public as "fake" behaviour (even when/though they are recognised as awful)*, whereas in the particular context of the kind of music doja cat makes, her behaviour is not just merely gross / sad but also can easily be framed as a sign that she is fundamentally a fraud.

Maybe I'm over-keen to make this align with my existing sense that in the current era the historical popular emphasis on judging musical artists by notions of real/fake has just shifted from structural factors to personal politics (e.g. the label you're on is less important than the contents of your twitter feed), but it feels very consistent. Which of course extends well beyond just the way "we" think about music.

I suspect this also plays into doja cat's apparent air of comfort with the blowback: there's almost a hillary clinton-esque "well if i'm gonna be judged regardless I may as well go ahead and get paid to speak to SocGen" air to her insouciance.

*Insert long side-discussion about Chris Brown as the liminal case here.

the Tolentino thing seems like a pretty strong case of "twitter telephone"

― k*r*n koltrane (Simon H.), Monday, May 25, 2020 10:34 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

not really? "human trafficker" might have been an inflammatory phrase, but tolentino's parents took real advantage of desperate filippino immigrants, coaxing them to america with promises of jobs that didn't always materialize and saddling them with more fees than it was possible to pay.

I was referring to her NY media blue check peers and twitter stans reflexively coming to her defense actually

ah.

i mean, i feel that the way it was brought up originally was gross too, as some kind of "gotcha." i don't envy jia tolentino's position. that said, she was dismissive and evasive about the testimony of these immigrants and tried to make it seem like the whole case was fabricated by ICE.

Imagine if twitter existed during 9/11.

...

No, no, stop, don't jump.

i don't envy jia tolentino's position. that said, she was dismissive and evasive about the testimony of these immigrants and tried to make it seem like the whole case was fabricated by ICE.

but also she really did not have to say anything at all. was anyone even talking about it before the post

(sorry for continued derail)

Saying nothing would probably be the smart course of action in 99% of these cars y

Er..cases

it was cool to see identity politics be weaponized to defend human trafficking, I must say. there are literally no depths that cannot be plumbed in this new, exciting age

xp people were talking about it, simon. someone on reddit uncovered the original news coverage of the case and it was making the rounds on twitter.

I really like that “Say So” song.

I've never found myself listening to "Say So" and thinking, "this is really nice but I wish the backing track sounded more like Evanescence's 2002 alt-rock hit 'Bring Me to Life'," but this is...something:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGBeV-Hlqaw

2020 popstars revealing their ✨HIDDEN UNTAPPED ROCK CRED✨ (this, Post Malone's Nirvana tribute, https://www.nme.com/news/music/kidding-billie-eilish-reacts-dave-grohl-comparing-nirvana-2459635) could probably be its own thread

"say so" sequel is out

Really disappointing taste in restaurants

https://postmates.com/blog/the-receipt-doja-cats-order-history

i thought maybe the bump would be abt the new album. guess not

i'm having a hard time getting into it all that much. her talent is evident but the production is homogenized in a way that leaves me a bit cold, idk. i like the song w/ ariana grande, it has some cool harmonies, a few of the ones on the back end i fuck with too. it's one of those albums that makes me appreciate the single more, i've been playing "kiss me more" a lot. also liked some of the deluxe songs, the one w/ eve is really fun. hot pink was an imperfect album but it felt more distinct to me than this, like she had leveled up the production while still retaining her identity. this one is bringing her further from that i think but i'm gonna give it a few more chances

kiss me more is a great song, isn't it?

i think so

"kiss me more" is great. the video kind of weirded me out at first.

I really hate everything she’s done and can’t disassociate the ironic racism from her current incatnation

hmm yeah i sort of forgot about that, it is pretty repulsive

Sounds like she’s having a rough week: https://www.eonline.com/news/1324617/why-doja-cat-says-shes-quitting-music