"I'm not a Democrat or Republican, a liberal or a conservative I think for myself!"

ime people who announce in advance they are sensible liberal technocrats instead of just sharing their ideas are always men.

we had a temp just out of college that we hired to file and do basic data entry. I thought it would be nice to take him to a friday social hour with the rest of the dept. He started asking people if they were Republicans. I was moritified and like "he just got out of college!" We also saw that he was posting lots on his fb that he was balling in his new wall street job. lol.

I've met quite a few of these guys (and one woman) and they were all American. Don't get me wrong, we have our own equally smug twats, probably more in fact, but they don't tend to present themselves this particular way. Think it is probably related to the US news media style which affects this bullshit too.

People who say this are taking their ignorance and lack of skin in the game, and attempting to put it across as above it all intelligence.

Thanks for saving me the trouble of having to post this

It’s a warning sign you’re going to hear something nutty. Often followed up with: “You see, I’m a student of history and history shows us that...”

― Boring, Maryland

"...history is just one damn thing after another."

aren’t these people always conservatives tho

It depends on whether you count libertarian nonsense as invariably conservative.

it is, and they are

The opposite of this - being susceptible to “identity fusion”, seems like a worse trait to me. We can only take our best stab at divining truth and fairness, and it’s probably preferable For individuals to do some of the legwork to just going with what looks like consensus. The way reality is twisting up into a hall of mirrors makes it that much more important. Evaluating something with impartiality doesn’t mean the following actions will be neutral either.

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2019/09/identity-fusion-trump-allegiance/598699/

Thinking independently is an excellent habit and rather difficult to pursue in practice, as independent thinking of any sort requires greater energy than simply adopting and parroting talking points prepared for public consumption. I have nothing but admiration for those who begin with a principled examination of the facts, a far-ranging survey of the arguments on all sides, and a critical eye for shoddy arguments. This isn't guaranteed to deliver any kind of original conclusions, or even correct ones, but it does require commitment to doing one's best at a high cost in time and resources.

That isn't what is drawing fire here. It is the soi disant preemptive claim to this kind of integrity and thoughtfulness that is so seldom borne out by the subsequent opinions expressed, that it is generally a mark of its absence, not its presence.

the last person i overheard using this line went on to praise michael savage as another example of a brave independent thinker who "tells it like it is."

This isn't guaranteed to deliver any kind of original conclusions, or even correct ones, but it does require commitment to doing one's best at a high cost in time and resources.

What about "I don't know", or "I don't have a strong opinion on that one"

Why does non identification with label presuppose having detailed knowledge and opinions on a topic at hand? Its ok not to know, its ok to have not decided, its ok to be unsure, conflicted, persuadable

I have known quite a few ppl who fit the description at hand and they have all been the most opinionated, know-it-alls I've ever come across.
I get the sense, Anvil, that you don't think of yourself as liberal or conservative and are bristling at getting lumped in with these types. As you should. But what I think the consensus here is saying is that, unfair as it may be, our reaction to these types is prob going to be people's reaction to you if you say something akin to the thread title quote.

Man it'd be so refreshing to meet someone who didn't view themselves as an independent thinker. "Yeah I was raised liberal and my whole life I've just parroted whatever other liberals have told me"

"I don't even know what to have for lunch until I see an advertisement! I'm lovin it!!"

variations on this have rarely been the South Park shock jock cliche of above, it's mostly people who recognize there's something fundamentally wrong with our society and government but can't really put their finger on it. Things have been awful forever, regardless of who was President, so both parties must be equally corrupt and aligned against the interests of the people - OTOH moderation is inherently smart so there must be something in the middle that combines these only two political ideas they've ever experienced that is the correct worldview and would be held by more politicians if they weren't indoctrinated into the self-serving corruption of the parties and then you just get a recursive loop forever until this person stops having political thoughts at all (80% of them).

I get the sense, Anvil, that you don't think of yourself as liberal or conservative and are bristling at getting lumped in with these types. As you should. But what I think the consensus here is saying is that, unfair as it may be, our reaction to these types is prob going to be people's reaction to you if you say something akin to the thread title quote.

I don't think of myself as liberal or conservative, no, but I wouldn't bristle if someone was to say that I was. And I would never say anything phrased in such a way as the title quote!

I realize I'm not talking directly about the type of person mentioned above, but more about is there any value in not vocally identifying in that way (even if you actually identify that way!). Its contextual I'd think

No I meant you'd bristle at getting lumped in with how we're all reacting to these "independent thinker" types

Milo very otm

Thinking of "I'm a y", "Oh, so you think x do you" type conversations and are there better ways that don't bring a bucket load of assumptions in. And crossover with right-wing brainworm thread where I've constantly had these conversation with my RW cousin where he abscribes all these strange views to me because I am "a leftist", making the conversation difficult because he has already 'heard' what I'm going to say.

I've had much better interaction since trying to steer away from that and be more specific rather than abstract

No I meant you'd bristle at getting lumped in with how we're all reacting to these "independent thinker" types

Oh no! I'm not bristling at that. I definitely realize I've co-opted the thread a bit to move away from a very particular type of person!

Caveat - While I've heard lots about people of this ilk mentioned in OP, I don't recall actually having met one. I probably have though and have forgotten

To steer thread back to Neanderthal's presumed intention, I think if I was going to engage with anyone like this I'd ask them specific questions and try and avoid anything abstract or overaraching

I get the sense, Anvil, that you don't think of yourself as liberal or conservative and are bristling at getting lumped in with these types.

Liberal means something different over here.

It means Conservative, ironically

Adorable

It's the card-carrying that bothers me more, of those who claim to be carrying a card that says what they are.

Yes, but the US is weird, you have that registered Democrat/Republican thing.

The person I know who is like this has issues she feels passionately about that span the political spectrum: anti-abortion, pro-science, pro-environment, anti-global intervention (but also pro-military), pro-capitalism, anti-corruption, anti-tax ("if our taxes weren't being used to line fat cats' pockets, then why do we have potholes?"), anti-racism, pro-gun, pro-UBI. She was partially raised by a Libertarian, but was registered Democrat until it became obvious that Hillary was going to be the nominee in 2016. She then switched her registration to Independent weeks ahead of the Maryland primary, knowingly disenfranchising herself. She also holds a grudge against Sanders now and believes him to be corrupt, since he didn't put up enough of a fight about Hillary for her tastes. Voted Johnson instead. Terrified of covid and thinks reopening is a bad idea, but believes that keeping the Tesla factory closed is fascist.

sounds like she should be less passionate

It's the "I think for myself" bit that is impossible to read as anything other than smug, self-congratulatory preening. The first half I don't have a problem with.

The "I think for myself" is the clue that the word "sheeple" is lurking somewhere in the background.

Yes, there's a big difference between someone saying "I don't know what side I'm on" vs "I'm privy to secret knowledge that puts me outside the bounds of a narrow political system."

The first half I don't have a problem with.

Neither do I, I'm not a Democrat or Republican, a liberal or a conservative either.

if you can follow up this statement by explaining the entirely novel political philosophy you've thought up yourself without any reliance on earlier ideas, then it's fair enough.

you must love joe rogan

xp

if online political quizzes made by americans have taught me anything it’s that every person or political position can be placed somewhere on a spectrum between ”very liberal” and “very conservative”

I'm not a Democrat
I'm not a Republican
I am something you can never understand

I would
vote for
you

the absolute worst amateur online political philosophers are the ones who explain to you this amazing thing they've read about called "The Horseshoe Theory"

The person I know who is like this has issues she feels passionately about that span the political spectrum: anti-abortion, pro-science, pro-environment, anti-global intervention (but also pro-military), pro-capitalism, anti-corruption, anti-tax ("if our taxes weren't being used to line fat cats' pockets, then why do we have potholes?"), anti-racism, pro-gun, pro-UBI.

So yeah, this is an extremely uncharacteristic example of the form, it is usually somebody whose views are extremely conventional but who really wants to convince you that in their case those views were arrived at by austere moral computation uncontaminated with any preconceptions or biases, unlike the identical views when held by "partisans"

the left and right both shout at me on twitter when I rhapodise about the status quo

xp uncharacteristic? i've met hundreds of people who think like that

lots of "no no people aren't like this they are actually like THIS don't you see" itt

if online political quizzes made by americans have taught me anything it’s that every person or political position can be placed somewhere on a spectrum between ”very liberal” and “very conservative”

― no (Left), Monday, May 18, 2020 12:13 PM (three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I know you've got a shtick going but the most obnoxious "share your results" thing on most of these quizzes is, to the point where a zillion dumb memes have been made about it, a quadrant graph and not one with two poles!

my politics isn’t based on politics unlike you plebs

quadrant thing is also bs

When we have already decided what said people are going to say, its no wonder they never disappoint us!

People never disappoint you?

I never see the original political compass quiz anymore that the libertarians used to show that actually everyone in both parties should join them

it was replaced by the one that shows that actually everyone is a social democrat

I think a lot of people are libertarian-curious but again, don't want to be associated with any particular party or movement because it seems gauche to them

because it seems gauche to them

A+

the "don't pay any attention to politics" faction is always going to be the largest single group

people who use some of the above and esp. "I’m socially liberal but fiscally conservative" usually seem to not be aware of too much going on but want to cover themselves while not discussing anything.

the "don't pay any attention to politics" faction is always going to be the largest single group

― Wuhan!! Got You All in Check (Camaraderie at Arms Length)

so ok, what's the overlap between these circles:

people who don't pay attention to politics
people who are so taken care of by the status quo political discourse that they have no need to concern themselves with it
people who are so excluded by the status quo political discourse that they have no viable opportunity to involve themselves in it

i self-identify, rightly or wrongly, as the third

firat two have some overlap, third one is a separate thing, however I would suggest that being engaged with political discourse by no means needs to take place within the status quo / mainstream media setting, actually most real discourse takes place outside it.

I would suggest there’s a difference between people who don’t follow “politics” vs people who just don’t follow the news (irrespective of any distrust of media)

guh I need to eat something. Nevermind, Carey on

carry

i self-identify, rightly or wrongly, as the third

self-identification is a matter best left to each self, but my outsider perception is that you find effective ways to involve yourself in the discourse on ilx and I appreciate those efforts.

actually most real discourse takes place outside it.

― Wuhan!! Got You All in Check

yeah but i'm not a true scotsman so i'm not qualified for real discourse

sarcasm aside, i find engaging in any sort of political discourse in a kind, respectful, and healthy manner to be really fucking difficult, particularly since much of the discourse i am exposed to seems to my inexpert opinion to have unhealthy and self-defeating tendencies.

it's all a meta-conversation with me, actually talking about the issues isn't even an option for me at this point, it's just figuring out how to get back to the fucking table. that's diplomacy, it's like playing fucking Risk, every game of Risk I was ever involved in ended in a physical altercation.