yeah idk if the doc is just soft peddling what a jerk he was but c'mon I've played with dudes on softball teams who needled their teammates the same way, I don't really see him crossing the line in any of this
― frogbs, Wednesday, 13 May 2020 21:26 (three years ago) link
as a human tho, Russell>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>MJ
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Wednesday, 13 May 2020 21:27 (three years ago) link
i think almost all the alltime greats prob did it w being less of a jerk than jordan not trying to condemn the man or nothin but obvs he was just being an ahole and reveling in it, i mean it mightve been necessary for his process but being that level of jerk is clearly not necessary for or even conducive to athletic achievement in general, being a mild to moderate asshole is obvs common amongst bigtime ballers tho
― lag∞n, Wednesday, 13 May 2020 21:28 (three years ago) link
i think it's clear jordan's relentless badgering bordered on abusive. frankly watching this doc is slightly claustrophobic for me - jordan's seething, needling, bullying neediness. it's everywhere. he's like a balloon ready to pop. and there are a lot of episodes. it's a really heavy dose. the idea of actually being around that all the time, being the target of that - yikes. when he hands a teammate (who?) some tickets to the game and asks if they need to be good seats, and the guy says 'naw, they can be up next to god' and jordan's like 'you can tell em god gave em to ya' where the joke is that jordan is god - it's like ffs. this comparison's slightly ott but it's a little like how trump manages to make everything about him. you can feel his energy from three planets away. you can't just practice in peace. i love when they ask scottie how the next year was, after mj retired the first time and he breaks into this big grin. 'it was great.'
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Wednesday, 13 May 2020 21:32 (three years ago) link
xp I think this is unfortunately the case more often than not w the "all time greats" in most any field, or among musicians painters writers filmmakers etc anyway
something to do w/ recognizing your talent and feeling an urgency/impatience to have it manifested
― Yanni Xenakis (Hadrian VIII), Wednesday, 13 May 2020 21:34 (three years ago) link
being competitive.....
― lag∞n, Wednesday, 13 May 2020 21:37 (three years ago) link
Haven't felt any of what tracer describes watching this doc tbh. The most disturbing/ holy shit thing to me was his off season/space jam workout and practice regimim. How did he not die?
― oscar bravo, Wednesday, 13 May 2020 21:41 (three years ago) link
I mean he says that he never asked his teammates to do anything he himself wasn't doing but even if you negate talent it's prob not feasible for 99.9% of actual humans to work that hard.
― oscar bravo, Wednesday, 13 May 2020 21:43 (three years ago) link
And he doesn' t see that cos as far as he' s concerned why can' t they? There's nothing stopping them.
― oscar bravo, Wednesday, 13 May 2020 21:45 (three years ago) link
this may be just the fact that i have consumed a fair amount of jordan being an asshole content in the past speaking but in the doc all of his teammates even the ones who were defending him acknowledged that he was being a noteworthily huge asshole
― lag∞n, Wednesday, 13 May 2020 21:57 (three years ago) link
as for individual acts yeah a lot of it isnt really that bad but i think its more that hes doing it all the time hes browbeating people, havent finished the latests eps not sure if punching teammates has been covered
― lag∞n, Wednesday, 13 May 2020 21:59 (three years ago) link
this idea that he was doing it purely to motivate ppl is obvs ridiculous, hes styling on his teammates owning the hell out of them cause he can and he likes it, and i mean it is sports but long story short yeah prob pretty unpleasant to be around
― lag∞n, Wednesday, 13 May 2020 22:02 (three years ago) link
they cover the kerr punch but kerr threw the first blow so that didnt look too bad on mike
― Spottie, Wednesday, 13 May 2020 22:19 (three years ago) link
honestly never knew kerr threw the first punch but mj made it clear he fouled the shit out of him, so that was clearly the instigating factor
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Wednesday, 13 May 2020 22:21 (three years ago) link
this doc has actually made me think he's less of a dick than i thought he was previously.
― Spottie, Wednesday, 13 May 2020 22:28 (three years ago) link
same, I kinda forgot how charismatic and funny he was, especially compared to guys like Kobe and LeBron
that said the doc is def edited in his favor
― frogbs, Wednesday, 13 May 2020 22:34 (three years ago) link
yah its p much a puff piece
― Spottie, Wednesday, 13 May 2020 22:40 (three years ago) link
being a mild to moderate asshole is obvs common amongst bigtime ballers tho
I wonder if he ever took that fact in and thought "well then if I'm an even bigger asshole, I'll be that much better of a baller!"
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Wednesday, 13 May 2020 23:41 (three years ago) link
i bet he did lol
― lag∞n, Wednesday, 13 May 2020 23:54 (three years ago) link
― Spottie, Wednesday, May 13, 2020 6:28 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink
― frogbs, Wednesday, May 13, 2020 6:34 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink
agree w all of this and for me its not that hes seemed like less of an asshole just that other sides of his personality are being revealed that temper it, also hes prob a pretty different person now than when he played its been a while people change
― lag∞n, Wednesday, 13 May 2020 23:58 (three years ago) link
i see zirin is yet another in the long line of people who are confused why a michael jordan documentary, made with the cooperation and editorial signoff of michael jordan, isn't more critical of michael jordan.
― call all destroyer, Thursday, 14 May 2020 00:22 (three years ago) link
wonder what the deal is with jordan not allowing them to use the old footage until now is, like why didnt he want it out there its odd
― lag∞n, Thursday, 14 May 2020 00:24 (three years ago) link
it probably really was difficult and emotional for him to relive all this stuff on camera. i actually think the timing is perfect now that there's a whole generation that never really saw him and thinks lebron is the best player.
― call all destroyer, Thursday, 14 May 2020 00:26 (three years ago) link
this is prob going to sound weird but hearing MJ talk about his mindset helped me understand my Mum - wrt sports as a kid. She was super competitive, natural talent at everything & won basically every game she played bc she had that deep will to win. she would try to push me to compete harder in tennis or netball etc & i just didnt want to, bc i wasnt competitive & sport was just something to do. We fought so hard about it!!But I kinda see that she had that same MJ mindset even though it was crazily misplaced on me lol Doesnt change anything but the new perspective is interesting
― terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 14 May 2020 00:27 (three years ago) link
def a savvy move to do it now xp
― lag∞n, Thursday, 14 May 2020 00:28 (three years ago) link
the fact that basketball stopped right be for it came out wasnt bad for it either
― lag∞n, Thursday, 14 May 2020 00:29 (three years ago) link
seriously, i wonder where it's going to go down among most-watched docs.
― call all destroyer, Thursday, 14 May 2020 00:35 (three years ago) link
Those other docs better not talk shit.
― DJI, Thursday, 14 May 2020 00:35 (three years ago) link
def getting a serious airing
― lag∞n, Thursday, 14 May 2020 00:35 (three years ago) link
well deserved imo its really well done tbh 10eps of jordan wasnt that appealing to me but im rapt
― lag∞n, Thursday, 14 May 2020 00:36 (three years ago) link
some other 30 for 30s that people raved over i didnt really think were that good but this one is
― lag∞n, Thursday, 14 May 2020 00:40 (three years ago) link
nice to have so much raw footage from 97-98
― brimstead, Thursday, 14 May 2020 00:43 (three years ago) link
yeah that stuffs a gold mine, and then the interviews have been great too
― lag∞n, Thursday, 14 May 2020 00:44 (three years ago) link
the bit where they give them the ipads is so good
― lag∞n, Thursday, 14 May 2020 00:48 (three years ago) link
seems like an obvious move and yet
it's brilliant. the director is def a talented guy. my spouse is not a basketball fan at all and she's been locked in every week.
― call all destroyer, Thursday, 14 May 2020 00:50 (three years ago) link
yeah it stands on its own
― lag∞n, Thursday, 14 May 2020 00:51 (three years ago) link
i have a young friend, he's like idk 24, who grew up a lakers & kobe stan (he thought kobe was the GOAT, i have since talked him out of this nonsense using STATISTICS) and he is utterly enthralled by this doc. i think to him MJ was this ghost who he never got to see and the way he lorded over so much nba discussion turned the kid off, but seeing all this footage the guy is suddenly the world's biggest MJ fan which is neat to see happen
― Clay, Thursday, 14 May 2020 01:26 (three years ago) link
good for the youth to receive an education
― lag∞n, Thursday, 14 May 2020 01:28 (three years ago) link
prob that he's an absolute nth level degenerate gambler and competition addict can relate to mj on that primal level
― Clay, Thursday, 14 May 2020 01:33 (three years ago) link
i noticed today that bball-ref has some spotty mj high school stats (probably someone went out and looked at old copies of the wilmington, nc, newspaper), and lol, he apparently scored 45 pts in a jv game. maybe helps put "cut from the varsity" in context.
― circles, Thursday, 14 May 2020 02:16 (three years ago) link
I feel like MJ was a dick to his teammates but it never reached any sort of level where it might impact their performance negatively. I can’t say this for, for example, Kevin Garnett
― Matt Armstrong, Thursday, 14 May 2020 03:13 (three years ago) link
did you run this post by kwame brown?
― call all destroyer, Thursday, 14 May 2020 03:37 (three years ago) link
I'm sure some of their performances were negatively affected. but kobe was worse lol
― fatuous salad (symsymsym), Thursday, 14 May 2020 04:29 (three years ago) link
Cause Kobe thought hey if MJ was a dick to his teammates and he was the greatest ever, I'm be an even bigger dick and therefore be even greatererer!
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Thursday, 14 May 2020 06:02 (three years ago) link
VegemiteGrrl nice post, I mean I'm like your mom in this regard, though I rarely call my kids out on it in MJ ways when I think they're slacking, but I drive myself in the MJ way and sometimes *want* to hold others accountable when they're not putting in the same effort. I'd guess this is pretty common & is maybe what separates the "Mamba Mentality" from MJ's.
I got asked a few years to be on a panel discussion at my son's middle school, with other "successful" members of the school community, and there was a question from the moderator about who you model yourself after. the other people were like "my mom" etc & I said MJ, and explained basically what we've been talking about, about his insane drive & (kinda) his dickness & the students just went wild for the first time during the whole otherwise boring time. I looked at the other panel members like they were all Craig Ehlo and walked away.
― Joey Corona (Euler), Thursday, 14 May 2020 08:57 (three years ago) link
quel balleur
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Thursday, 14 May 2020 09:33 (three years ago) link
it's fun seeing fat jordan and reliving some of those games but mainly for me it's that footage. most of what any of us have ever seen of jordan is SD-quality video of games.. and here comes this HD, slo-mo, pinpoint sharp, perfectly exposed footage not only of the games but the locker rooms, hotel rooms, buses - it's extraordinary
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Thursday, 14 May 2020 09:34 (three years ago) link
haha yeah it was in Paris! my kid's school was basically all students of African descent so I think they understand MJ in their own particular way, but my son said afterwards that they loved it.
― Joey Corona (Euler), Thursday, 14 May 2020 09:49 (three years ago) link
Still have a couple of episodes to go--there's a bit of a delay in Canada.
Re Jordan's competitiveness...When that journeyman player had the great game, and Jordan made up that story where the guy said "nice game" to him so he could motivate himself via anger and revenge--which then broadened out to Jordan's habit of doing that as a matter of routine--it reminded me of a certain president whose name I won't infect this thread with, the need for a perceived enemy to function. Obviously there's a world of difference there as to the ultimate goal, but that did cross my mind.
― clemenza, Thursday, 14 May 2020 13:50 (three years ago) link