Rolling Music Theory Thread

Two explanations were given for bVII that make sense to me in terms of progression from ii: mediant movement or dominant prolongation. Clearly you just don't agree. I don't really see why i-iv in F minor is more purposeful: where does the subdominant lead from there? It is still moving to bVII-V-I in Ab. The Gb chord makes less sense in F min than in Ab; if anything, Bbm would be the pivot chord and you end up in the same place. vi-ii as T-PD moving to dominant via an ambiguous chord (which can be explained) seems more purposeful to me than T-PD in F minor that never progress to the dominant ("go anywhere") in that key but move to an ambiguous chord and then go to the dominant of Ab. (The idea that this is in Db with no tonic resolution in either melody or harmony seems tbh far-fetched). The need to see things 'going somewhere' is why theorists usually insist on reaching a cadence in a new key before being willing to label a modulation!

There is a tendency in theorists to try and codify things by scale and by mode-- I've gotten into fire-fights in the past with people trying to impose "it's Phyrgian!" on to anything with a flattened-2nd and it just doesn't work like that. Theory is (in my eyes) meant to be a way of understanding how flighty inspiration works, a kind of reference point for composers to riff off of. It's not a Rosetta stone, you can't really unpack everything, and why would you want to?

I was just thinking about this thread yesterday when "Last Friday Night" by Katy Perry came on while I was grocery shopping. That song is, to my ears, in a major key, but it never lands on the I. Theorists would argue that the chords solidly place it in the relative minor. I would argue "but listen to the melody. It's on the tonic of the relative major the whole fucking time. It's major, it's just trying to trick you!"

The truth about "Words Of Love" is that it is functionally in TWO different keys. The chords map better to Cb-major than Ab-major. The strongest assertion of a key centre happens on chord 3 of the verse cycle-- Cb-major. The chord progression, thus, is essentially VI(7) - V - I, before it dips to Bb - A (or Bb - Eb, depending) to swoop in and make this Cb-major cadence a grand deception by giving you a strong II - bII - I back to Ab-major (or II - V - I, depending).

We can argue modes, we can argue key centres, but it's the ambiguity that makes this song so colourful... I mean, even the intro starts in E-major! Bizarre!

Or rather, you could argue it starts in Cb-major, even! A little Fb - Cb (IV - I) plagal cadence in the deceptive key centre of the song.

Two explanations were given for bVII that make sense to me in terms of progression from ii: mediant movement or dominant prolongation. Clearly you just don't agree.

Of those two, I would say I particularly disagree with the idea of it as dominant prolongation. If there was no Eb chord following, I don't think the Gb substitutes as a dominant chord in this case. If you just went straight from the Gb to Ab, it doesn't even feel to me like I know that Ab is the tonic. I can see instances where bVII could be thought of as a sub for a dominant chord, but given F minor and Bb minor to start the bridge, I don't hear this as one of them.

Maybe "purposeful" is not the term I'm looking for with regard to a consideration of the F minor and Bb minor chords as tonic and subdominant. I think to consider them as tonic and subdominant is to consider them as chords that are more nailed down. The I and IV in "Feelin Alright?" by Traffic don't go anywhere either, but that's about as nailed down as you can get. I absolutely agree with you that the Gb makes no sense relative the key of F minor, which is why I've been arguing that there's no reason to think of that moment as ANOTHER momentary shift in tonal center. And I like the idea of considering it as the IV of Db. I can say it's a bVII in Ab, but as I think I suggested before, I think the held Bb in the vocal melody when the chord changes from Gb to Eb is to make you hear that common tone when a shift in tonal center occurs.

Thinking of Gb as IV of Db might just be another way of saying "mediant movement," although I'm not really used to that term and not really sure how it's usually employed. I'm used to considerations of chromatic mediants or double chromatic mediants, but those are relative to the tonic, not another chord.

My desire to relate the Gb chord to some scale or tonal center is not just a compulsion, it comes from an interest in wanting to know how a chord does or can function, at least in situations where it seems to be functioning in some way like this one (at least to me) does.

a bVII chord is pretty vanilla if you ask me, especially in the context of 60s folk pop. these songs were written by ear not by reading rimsky-korsakov

Sorry guys. Above meant to say re. Gb chord: "which is why I've been arguing that there IS reason to think of that moment as another momentary shift in tonal center"

Not sure what you mean, crüt, by saying it's vanilla.

The strongest assertion of a key centre happens on chord 3 of the verse cycle-- Cb-major.

Gonna say I disagree with this! This is a song where that chord that occurs in the first bar of every four bar group really feels like the root. There's even a V-I cadence the first time through the chords.

On the other hand, totally agree on "Last Friday Night." Didn't we talk about that one on this thread once long ago? I think every time it goes to the Db chord, there's a deceptive cadence.

There's no question in my mind that the song is in Ab-major... I'm trying to illustrate that a lot of the concepts of 'chromaticism?' and 'flat-what chord?' can be summed up by acknowledging the implication of a different key centre; in this case, Cb-major.

It's a pretty bog-standard concept that the addition of a b7 to a I chord (blues, i.e.) creates a kind of gravity toward the IV chord. It's not in the key of IV. It's just that the key of IV is implied in a 12-bar blues progression. The b7 on a I chord falls to the third of the VI chord as it would in a standard V7 - I perfect cadence. Ambiguity is created, a destabilization.

My argument with "Words Of Love" is that the same thing is happening, except with Cb-major (bIII) as the gravitational "other key". The b7 (Gb) that appears on the I chord (Ab-major) is not leading into IV (as it would in standard blues). It functions as the dominant of Cb-major (bIII). Ab(b7) - Gb - Cb = Ib7 - bVII - bIII in Ab-major. It's VIb7 - V - I in Cb-major.

DOES THIS ARGUMENT SOUND FAMILIAR? It should: we're mining the same territory as the perennial "Sweet Home Alabama" debate. It's the same three chords. Common sense would state that these three chords off the top of a verse are in Ab-major. Steeler's Wheel themselves would state that no, "Sweet Home Alabama" is in the key of Cb-major.

The difference is that The Mamas & The Papas follow the Ab(b7) - Gb - Cb with a very decisively Ab-major conclusion: Bb - A - Ab! (Or Bb - Eb - Ab!) It's clearly in Ab-major, but there is the implication of Cb-major.

And furthermore, if you acknowledge this kind of secondary key-centre, it makes things like the intro much more parseable. (How else are you going to explain the intro beginning on a cheery Fb-major -> Cb-major moment without some bizarre "oh it's a #IV" or some complicated explanation involving modulation? The answer is that Cb-major is an implied secondary key throughout this song.)

And SCRATCh what I tried to do just there about bringing it back to "Sweet Home Alabama"-- the secondary key in that song (if one could exist) is IV, not bIII. I was wrong! I just got excited for a moment

The b7 (Gb) that appears on the I chord (Ab-major) is not leading into IV (as it would in standard blues). It functions as the dominant of Cb-major (bIII).

TOTALLY

And yes to Cb tonal center explaining the intro also!

Yeah and that Gb over Ab-major is one of two shared pitches required for a mediant relationship explanation, too... The Gb and the Eb are both found in Cb-major.

Generally I think a lot of pop music chord progressions can be parsed more easily with concepts of secondary key-centres instead of complicated modulation explanations but that's just me. Not that complicated modulations don't exist. I could never argue that "Cybele's Reverie" has a verse in F-major and a bridge in C-major.

Speaking of mediant relationships, check out the key centres of "Wouldn't It Be Nice"! An intro in A-major. Verse is in F-major-- a major third away, with A as the shared pitch. Bridge is in D-major-- a minor third away-- and cleverly repurposes the harp intro (A-major) as chordal extensions in D-major. This song is so clever

*sorry, I could never argue against the idea that "Cybele's Reverie" has a verse and a bridge in two distinct keys.

Good point on "Cybele's Reverie." People probably might have a tendency to think that stays in F major during the bridge because of the Bb chord.

Yes but by the same token Laetitia is singing a B-natural at the end of her drifty long melodies in the otherwise very F-major verses. My take: there are two key centres in this song (F-major and C-major), they exist sequentially (not concurrently), and yet there are elements of interfacing between them.

I love the synth C note that extends out of the bridge and over the first g-minor chord of the verse reprise-- it turns that g-minor into the upper notes of an implied C9. Very cool move!

That is a B natural, isn't it? I don't know if it alludes to the key of C right there. It strikes me as a chromatic passing note from C to Bb.

Not sure if this is exactly the right thread for it, but saw a link to this interesting master's thesis on social media the other day:
http://luifabriek.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Bram-Nigten-Recorded-Reflections-Sonic-Space-in-US-Popular-Recordings-During-the-Mono-Era-1877-1957-and-its-Occurrence-in-Three-Recordings-of-Studio-Pioneer-Bill-Putnam-MA-Thesis.pdf

Mixolydian songs that actually use the v chord (which is minor): "All Things Must Pass"

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Somebody just posted a link to this elsewhere, seems interesting: http://cochranemusic.com/slonimsky-guitar-book

We teach or study Bach chorale harmonizations so much on paper in an analytical/formulaic way that it can be easy to forget how incredible they can sound and work musically, how much Bach got out of these hymn melodies in such short amounts of time. I was just looking at and listening to BWV 122.6, a harmonization of verse 4 "Das neugeborne Kindelein": it consists of four four-bar phrases and takes about 40s in this performance: https://open.spotify.com/track/15iLRj3RAbWzWw9cWpjFbA?si=32OV2v08TKmb-qWGDZKrUA. In that time, it modulates three times so that each phrase is in a different key that the previous one. See the score here: https://www.bach-cantatas.com/PDFCH/012206.pdf. The first phrase ends with a half cadence in G minor. The second modulates to D minor and ends with an authentic cadence but on a Picardy so that the final chord is D major. The third phrase modulates to Bb major and ends with a perfect authentic cadence with a cadential 6/4. The last phrase modulates back to G minor and ends with a Picardy so that there is a perfect authentic cadence landing on G major.

Wow!

My daughter is learning the harmonic minor scale right now:)

:)

Just encountered an interesting (to me) listening ear/training thing that maybe I will comment on tomorrow if I remember.

Thread:

I've listened to Kyle Gann's Hyperchromatica a lot since it came out but never really broke down or read up properly on the actual tuning system he developed, although the info was all there /1: https://t.co/uduo3CLofj…#xen #newmusic #microtonality

— Sundar Subramanian (@SundarSubrama13) August 16, 2020

4=a

Thinking more about Bach chorales (again), I wonder what insights we'd glean if we actually translated and read the actual texts of the hymns Bach was harmonizing and considered the harmonizations in terms of how Bach was expressing these messages (and applying this understanding as well when we write our pastiches) - obv that was an important part of it for him and no doubt musicologists are doing it but I wonder if even core undergrad/conservatory theory would be strengthened with more integration of this element. It always seems a little odd that we study these as abstract formula. We do study Romantic lied this way.

Sorry, meant that it's common to study Romantic lieder in terms of how the music works to express the text.

You got an example?

That's the thing - I've been teaching them for over a decade without ever doing this. It just strikes me as an odd thing so more something I want to look into. Will tackle one or two this week.

I listened to a handful of chorales and read the translations... I didn't really see anything worth commenting on. The melody already existed, sad hymns were sad, happy hymns were happy, Picardie employed to indicate resolve. There's interfacing between text and harmonization but I didn't see anything that subverted or changed the message of the lyrics, it just seemed tonally appropriate at all times.

Interesting idea, though! I've long been obsessed with David Wilcock's descant to Mendelssohn's "Hark! The Herald Angels Sing"-- the dissonant Fs on the final refrains, aaaaaaah!! I've wondered what the intention was, with regards to lyrical interfacing, colouring of the text, but I just figured it was mathematically designed to break my heart into a thousand pieces

Oh sure, I don't doubt that the text-music relationship is probably simpler than in Schubert. Might still inform one's appreciation of why e.g. a Picardy or secondary dominant is used in specific places; also might make it a more conscious/intentional expressive task to write a chorale harmonization if you're thinking about expressing something and not just applying quasi-algorithmic rules.

Will look at the one you mention!

Ya you probably know it. There are a couple of articles online that describe it as 'the best descant in the repertoire' and it admittedly is super turbo good, it's my favourite carol as a result

This song is in C major but what's happening at 1:23? I think the lead guitarist in the L channel is playing in C minor (after the 1st bar) while the lead guitarist (overdub?) in the R is playing in B minor?!https://t.co/pwcfzvhnnO#musictheory #polytonality #indiemusic #guitar

— Sundar Subramanian (@SundarSubrama13) August 19, 2020

this is an old article, but it popped up on twitter. we can all agree that a bunch of these are not actually key changes, right?

https://music.avclub.com/can-you-take-me-high-enough-24-songs-with-a-pivotal-k-1798278771

specifically, hey jude (just a change of chord progression that emphasizes the bVII), undone (maybe modulates in the solo, but comes right back to the key center for the chorus), and since u been gone (i think she just sings a different melody over the same chord progression over the last chorus).

Hey Jude, no, that's a secondary dominant
Weezer, yep that's a key change, even though it comes back
"Since You Been Gone", yikes, that's not even a secondary dominant or anything, just a substituted chord

Good that they included "Love On Top" that's a real important one, it reminded me of Kevin Blechdom's "I Will Always Love You" when I first heard it haha

"Miss Misery" doesn't qualify I don't think, I think of key changes as when an actual change of key signature would be required, when the tonal centre has completely shifted, and the post-chorus moment they're pointing out just isn't that, the gravity is still around the main key of the song

The rest of them seem legit

There's a lot of interesting suggestions in the comments. It's true that they can't really talk about "key changes in pop music" without mentioning Beach Boys, those are really the cleverest and most effective, "Surf's Up" still confounds me, it's the rare song that I've heard hundreds of times but wouldn't be able to sound out at the piano from memory.

"Karma Police" is a real good suggestion in the comments, "Bohemian Rhapsody", too.

I'm on-the-fence as to how you'd describe a song where the verses and choruses are just in different keys, and the changing between them happens often-- "Layla", for example, although the shift between keys is garbage writing, imo.

One of the most confounding moments in pop music, for me, is "This Guy's In Love With You" (Bacharach/David). The "Say you're in love / in love with this guy" secondary dominant is so powerful that it threatens to usurp the actual key centre of the entire song. I fucking love that moment

Before listening, just scanning this over, a bunch of these are just the truck driver modulation, right?

it's the rare song that I've heard hundreds of times but wouldn't be able to sound out at the piano from memory.

i can mostly do this, but that's after practicing it for about 8 hours straight one day lol

"Layla", for example, although the shift between keys is garbage writing, imo.

i always thought that transition was very jarring, tho the chromaticism is kinda fun.

a personal favorite key change of mine is costello's 'oliver's army,' which changes key from A to B right away in the bridge by shifting to the new key's relative minor of G#m, but doesn't become obvious until he returns to the verse.

The write-up on Cheap Trick "Surrender" doesn't mention that there are two changes in the song... I've always loved how the intro is in Bb but then it goes immediately to B (and never goes back to Bb)

is there a turnaround in that one, or does it just jump up a half-step when the verse starts?

Nope, it just jumps a half-step arbitrarily off the top, and then it does the same move again when they get to the verse where the parents are banging

That's great, yeah.

What do we make of "Girl from Ipanema"? Let's look at the original Getz/Gilberto version in Db, not the fakebook version in F. Here's a faithful transcription of Gilberto's guitar part: http://www.hjgs.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/The-girl-from-ipanema.pdf . And this is the melody: https://drive.google.com/file/d/11gZNXD-CJ87Gkm4USTvWuDpPH_XdYD5t/view?usp=sharing. The A sections aren't too crazy: essentially, the progression of Db [6/9] - Eb9 - Ebm9 - D7 - Db [6/9] reduces to a I - ii - V7 - I progression with a tritone substitution for V7 (D7 instead of Ab7) and a chromatic II7 chord produced by an incomplete neighbouring note between the I and ii chords. EXCEPT Gilberto played the entire thing in second inversion, which seems crazy but works for some reason - what is the reason, though? Over the ii-V(tri sub)-I turnaround, I can see that the fifths in the bass are mostly doubling the melody; this still doesn't explain the bass in the first four bars. Also, it's a little trickier because the tri sub chord isn't a real D7 - there's no root in either the guitar part or the melody. It's actually F# dim/A, which could substitute for D7 but is now a substitute for a substitute?

The B section is the really fun part, though. The most convincing explanation (Ed Byrne's or my adjustment of his) I've seen analyses mm. 11-22 as moving through three unresolved tonicizations:
Dmaj7-G7 is IV-bVII7 of A
Dm7-Bb7 is ii-bVII7 of C
and Ebm7-Cb7 is ii-bVII7 of the home key of Db
and from there we just go to a standard chain of ii-V-Is

which is not bad as an explanation but... where do those key areas/tonicizations come from?? A (Bbb) works as a chromatic mediant move to bVI from Db but why do we get to C from there? Why does G7 go to Dm7? (Bb7 to Ebm7 is obv straightforward.)