Rolling Music Theory Thread

"Don't the first two lines of the vocal melody start on C?"

Oh sure, but at the very end you have that very prominent Cb right before she goes up to the C natural.

Hearing the song in a different key for two bars seems like an overcomplicated explanation to me but I don't know how Gb could work as a pivot chord there even if you did. I mean, it would be a root-position Neapolitan chord in F minor and bVII in Ab but that seems pretty non-idiomatic.

For me, I don't care if it's overcomplicated. I want to know, most of all, what a given chord is doing, what is its relation to a tonal center. What does it feel like.

And the minor modality in Ab is strong enough for me that, when the bridge starts, I feel a shift. I know there's a C natural at the beginning of the verse melody, but the melodic line at the end of the verse, just prior to the bridge, is comprised entirely of notes from the B major scale.

Or Cb major scale if we're talking about minor modality in Ab

I actually feel like it can be more complicated to always have to try to reckon things to home keys unless there's a cadence.

There might be e.g. jazz pieces with a lot of chromatic harmony where I could see that but, in this case, Fm and Bbm are completely diatonic harmonies in Ab that lead to an authentic cadence in Ab within two bars, via a chord (Gb) that is more common in Ab (major or minor) than in F minor. I'm not sure we're even disagreeing on their function: we are both hearing Fm-Bb at the start of the bridge as T-PD movement and, at that point, it is ambiguous whether we will end up in F minor or come back and resolve in Ab. If the phrase ended with a cadence in F minor, I would agree that they function as i-iv in that key. Since we instead end up with V-I in Ab, I analyse vi as a deceptive substitute for the tonic.

Sorry, I analyse Fm as vi and a deceptive substitute for the tonic chord.

Once again typing while you were responding and I have this:

"but I don't know how Gb could work as a pivot chord there even if you did"

Yeah, and that was my reason for raising the question in the first place. It's not a pivot. I think VC had it right when he explained it in terms of the key of Db. But I think the repetition of notes in the bridge melody over the Gb major chord and then over the Eb chord, used as a dominant, highlights a change of tonality and the return to Ab as tonal center.

in this case, Fm and Bbm are completely diatonic harmonies in Ab

Right, but as I said, the melodic line right before it is not in Ab major; they're all notes relative to the Cb major scale.

Iirc, the vocal melody there mostly moves between Ab and Bb (with that one descent to F) and there is no Db chord in the bridge. How would you hear it in Db?xp

Right, but as I said, the melodic line right before it is not in Ab major; they're all notes relative to the Cb major scale.

Eh, the song mixes modes between Ab major and Ab minor but that doesn't mean Fm and Bbm are now chromatic harmonies or that we need to analyse a key change there.

Obv there's room for interpretation, as fgti says. I'm just arguing for mine.

Given the G natural in the vocal melody over the first two chords in the bridge, you would have to say that something changes relative to the tonal center when you get to the Gb chord. You could say, well, we're just momentarily throwing in some flat sevens here in what was, moments earlier, diatonic melodicism in either Ab major (as you think of it) or F minor (as I think of it).

Db as tonal center would be a way of reckoning the first three chords together, but yeah, it's problematic relative to the G naturals in the melody over the F minor and Bb minor chords.

doesn't mean Fm and Bbm are now chromatic harmonies or that we need to analyse a key change there

The need for me is in the fact that I don't think they function as a vi and as a ii. I don't think Ab Ionian is ever established. It's always with flat sevens and quite clearly Aeolian in the last part of the verse.

Or, not Aeolian, harmonic minor

I just hear it as a deceptive move back to major mode in a song that is already shifting between modes (maybe more than an earlier post of mine may have suggested?). You could analyse it instead as a brief move to F minor, the relative minor key of Ab major, en route to a V-I cadence in Ab, but I think it mostly amounts to saying the same thing.

Cool track btw! Thanks for bringing it up. The mixture is really interesting.

It is a cool track. I was thinking about how saying that I don't think they function as a vi chord and a ii chord leads to the question of - well, how are vi and ii chords supposed to function?

And I suppose there are many answers to that, but one way I think they can sort-of-function/sort-of-not-function is as chords used in a section that meanders. And that's how I would have to describe their use here IF we are saying it is still in the key of Ab. You start a new section on a vi chord, but then don't really do anything with it. You go to the ii, but then throw in a bVII (changing the mode), and then...straight to a dominant chord? That's some serious meandering.

But, the thing is, I do not think this song meanders in the slightest. I think it is quite crisp. I think each chord has a purpose. So, if I'm saying we're momentarily in the key of F minor, there are my purposeful chords - the tonic and the subdominant.

In functional harmony, ii is a pre-dominant; vi is a pre-dominant or a tonic substitute (most obv in a deceptive cadence but also sometimes at the beginning of a phrase, e.g. in the chorus of REO Speedwagon - "Take It on the Run"). I hear it the latter way here. I don't think of meandering as a harmonic function and it's not what I think is happening here.

Yeah, I was referring to meandering more as a non-function. vi and ii are not meandering in and of themselves, obviously. If I follow the idea that the whole thing is in Ab, the meandering is established when they don't lead anywhere.

And if I am to say that the whole thing is in Ab, I don't think they do lead anywhere. I don't think that bVII chord progresses from vi and ii. It changes the notes of the scale. It's not just a little coloration change either, a little mode mixture. That's diatonic melodicism in what I think is F minor for those two measures before you get the Gb chord.

"Take It On the Run" is a great example of a song with a major section starting on the vi chord where there is clearly NOT a change of key.

Two explanations were given for bVII that make sense to me in terms of progression from ii: mediant movement or dominant prolongation. Clearly you just don't agree. I don't really see why i-iv in F minor is more purposeful: where does the subdominant lead from there? It is still moving to bVII-V-I in Ab. The Gb chord makes less sense in F min than in Ab; if anything, Bbm would be the pivot chord and you end up in the same place. vi-ii as T-PD moving to dominant via an ambiguous chord (which can be explained) seems more purposeful to me than T-PD in F minor that never progress to the dominant ("go anywhere") in that key but move to an ambiguous chord and then go to the dominant of Ab. (The idea that this is in Db with no tonic resolution in either melody or harmony seems tbh far-fetched). The need to see things 'going somewhere' is why theorists usually insist on reaching a cadence in a new key before being willing to label a modulation!

There is a tendency in theorists to try and codify things by scale and by mode-- I've gotten into fire-fights in the past with people trying to impose "it's Phyrgian!" on to anything with a flattened-2nd and it just doesn't work like that. Theory is (in my eyes) meant to be a way of understanding how flighty inspiration works, a kind of reference point for composers to riff off of. It's not a Rosetta stone, you can't really unpack everything, and why would you want to?

I was just thinking about this thread yesterday when "Last Friday Night" by Katy Perry came on while I was grocery shopping. That song is, to my ears, in a major key, but it never lands on the I. Theorists would argue that the chords solidly place it in the relative minor. I would argue "but listen to the melody. It's on the tonic of the relative major the whole fucking time. It's major, it's just trying to trick you!"

The truth about "Words Of Love" is that it is functionally in TWO different keys. The chords map better to Cb-major than Ab-major. The strongest assertion of a key centre happens on chord 3 of the verse cycle-- Cb-major. The chord progression, thus, is essentially VI(7) - V - I, before it dips to Bb - A (or Bb - Eb, depending) to swoop in and make this Cb-major cadence a grand deception by giving you a strong II - bII - I back to Ab-major (or II - V - I, depending).

We can argue modes, we can argue key centres, but it's the ambiguity that makes this song so colourful... I mean, even the intro starts in E-major! Bizarre!

Or rather, you could argue it starts in Cb-major, even! A little Fb - Cb (IV - I) plagal cadence in the deceptive key centre of the song.

Two explanations were given for bVII that make sense to me in terms of progression from ii: mediant movement or dominant prolongation. Clearly you just don't agree.

Of those two, I would say I particularly disagree with the idea of it as dominant prolongation. If there was no Eb chord following, I don't think the Gb substitutes as a dominant chord in this case. If you just went straight from the Gb to Ab, it doesn't even feel to me like I know that Ab is the tonic. I can see instances where bVII could be thought of as a sub for a dominant chord, but given F minor and Bb minor to start the bridge, I don't hear this as one of them.

Maybe "purposeful" is not the term I'm looking for with regard to a consideration of the F minor and Bb minor chords as tonic and subdominant. I think to consider them as tonic and subdominant is to consider them as chords that are more nailed down. The I and IV in "Feelin Alright?" by Traffic don't go anywhere either, but that's about as nailed down as you can get. I absolutely agree with you that the Gb makes no sense relative the key of F minor, which is why I've been arguing that there's no reason to think of that moment as ANOTHER momentary shift in tonal center. And I like the idea of considering it as the IV of Db. I can say it's a bVII in Ab, but as I think I suggested before, I think the held Bb in the vocal melody when the chord changes from Gb to Eb is to make you hear that common tone when a shift in tonal center occurs.

Thinking of Gb as IV of Db might just be another way of saying "mediant movement," although I'm not really used to that term and not really sure how it's usually employed. I'm used to considerations of chromatic mediants or double chromatic mediants, but those are relative to the tonic, not another chord.

My desire to relate the Gb chord to some scale or tonal center is not just a compulsion, it comes from an interest in wanting to know how a chord does or can function, at least in situations where it seems to be functioning in some way like this one (at least to me) does.

a bVII chord is pretty vanilla if you ask me, especially in the context of 60s folk pop. these songs were written by ear not by reading rimsky-korsakov

Sorry guys. Above meant to say re. Gb chord: "which is why I've been arguing that there IS reason to think of that moment as another momentary shift in tonal center"

Not sure what you mean, crüt, by saying it's vanilla.

The strongest assertion of a key centre happens on chord 3 of the verse cycle-- Cb-major.

Gonna say I disagree with this! This is a song where that chord that occurs in the first bar of every four bar group really feels like the root. There's even a V-I cadence the first time through the chords.

On the other hand, totally agree on "Last Friday Night." Didn't we talk about that one on this thread once long ago? I think every time it goes to the Db chord, there's a deceptive cadence.

There's no question in my mind that the song is in Ab-major... I'm trying to illustrate that a lot of the concepts of 'chromaticism?' and 'flat-what chord?' can be summed up by acknowledging the implication of a different key centre; in this case, Cb-major.

It's a pretty bog-standard concept that the addition of a b7 to a I chord (blues, i.e.) creates a kind of gravity toward the IV chord. It's not in the key of IV. It's just that the key of IV is implied in a 12-bar blues progression. The b7 on a I chord falls to the third of the VI chord as it would in a standard V7 - I perfect cadence. Ambiguity is created, a destabilization.

My argument with "Words Of Love" is that the same thing is happening, except with Cb-major (bIII) as the gravitational "other key". The b7 (Gb) that appears on the I chord (Ab-major) is not leading into IV (as it would in standard blues). It functions as the dominant of Cb-major (bIII). Ab(b7) - Gb - Cb = Ib7 - bVII - bIII in Ab-major. It's VIb7 - V - I in Cb-major.

DOES THIS ARGUMENT SOUND FAMILIAR? It should: we're mining the same territory as the perennial "Sweet Home Alabama" debate. It's the same three chords. Common sense would state that these three chords off the top of a verse are in Ab-major. Steeler's Wheel themselves would state that no, "Sweet Home Alabama" is in the key of Cb-major.

The difference is that The Mamas & The Papas follow the Ab(b7) - Gb - Cb with a very decisively Ab-major conclusion: Bb - A - Ab! (Or Bb - Eb - Ab!) It's clearly in Ab-major, but there is the implication of Cb-major.

And furthermore, if you acknowledge this kind of secondary key-centre, it makes things like the intro much more parseable. (How else are you going to explain the intro beginning on a cheery Fb-major -> Cb-major moment without some bizarre "oh it's a #IV" or some complicated explanation involving modulation? The answer is that Cb-major is an implied secondary key throughout this song.)

And SCRATCh what I tried to do just there about bringing it back to "Sweet Home Alabama"-- the secondary key in that song (if one could exist) is IV, not bIII. I was wrong! I just got excited for a moment

The b7 (Gb) that appears on the I chord (Ab-major) is not leading into IV (as it would in standard blues). It functions as the dominant of Cb-major (bIII).

TOTALLY

And yes to Cb tonal center explaining the intro also!

Yeah and that Gb over Ab-major is one of two shared pitches required for a mediant relationship explanation, too... The Gb and the Eb are both found in Cb-major.

Generally I think a lot of pop music chord progressions can be parsed more easily with concepts of secondary key-centres instead of complicated modulation explanations but that's just me. Not that complicated modulations don't exist. I could never argue that "Cybele's Reverie" has a verse in F-major and a bridge in C-major.

Speaking of mediant relationships, check out the key centres of "Wouldn't It Be Nice"! An intro in A-major. Verse is in F-major-- a major third away, with A as the shared pitch. Bridge is in D-major-- a minor third away-- and cleverly repurposes the harp intro (A-major) as chordal extensions in D-major. This song is so clever

*sorry, I could never argue against the idea that "Cybele's Reverie" has a verse and a bridge in two distinct keys.

Good point on "Cybele's Reverie." People probably might have a tendency to think that stays in F major during the bridge because of the Bb chord.

Yes but by the same token Laetitia is singing a B-natural at the end of her drifty long melodies in the otherwise very F-major verses. My take: there are two key centres in this song (F-major and C-major), they exist sequentially (not concurrently), and yet there are elements of interfacing between them.

I love the synth C note that extends out of the bridge and over the first g-minor chord of the verse reprise-- it turns that g-minor into the upper notes of an implied C9. Very cool move!

That is a B natural, isn't it? I don't know if it alludes to the key of C right there. It strikes me as a chromatic passing note from C to Bb.

Not sure if this is exactly the right thread for it, but saw a link to this interesting master's thesis on social media the other day:
http://luifabriek.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Bram-Nigten-Recorded-Reflections-Sonic-Space-in-US-Popular-Recordings-During-the-Mono-Era-1877-1957-and-its-Occurrence-in-Three-Recordings-of-Studio-Pioneer-Bill-Putnam-MA-Thesis.pdf

Mixolydian songs that actually use the v chord (which is minor): "All Things Must Pass"

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Somebody just posted a link to this elsewhere, seems interesting: http://cochranemusic.com/slonimsky-guitar-book

We teach or study Bach chorale harmonizations so much on paper in an analytical/formulaic way that it can be easy to forget how incredible they can sound and work musically, how much Bach got out of these hymn melodies in such short amounts of time. I was just looking at and listening to BWV 122.6, a harmonization of verse 4 "Das neugeborne Kindelein": it consists of four four-bar phrases and takes about 40s in this performance: https://open.spotify.com/track/15iLRj3RAbWzWw9cWpjFbA?si=32OV2v08TKmb-qWGDZKrUA. In that time, it modulates three times so that each phrase is in a different key that the previous one. See the score here: https://www.bach-cantatas.com/PDFCH/012206.pdf. The first phrase ends with a half cadence in G minor. The second modulates to D minor and ends with an authentic cadence but on a Picardy so that the final chord is D major. The third phrase modulates to Bb major and ends with a perfect authentic cadence with a cadential 6/4. The last phrase modulates back to G minor and ends with a Picardy so that there is a perfect authentic cadence landing on G major.

Wow!

My daughter is learning the harmonic minor scale right now:)

:)

Just encountered an interesting (to me) listening ear/training thing that maybe I will comment on tomorrow if I remember.

Thread:

I've listened to Kyle Gann's Hyperchromatica a lot since it came out but never really broke down or read up properly on the actual tuning system he developed, although the info was all there /1: https://t.co/uduo3CLofj…#xen #newmusic #microtonality

— Sundar Subramanian (@SundarSubrama13) August 16, 2020

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