no boys allowed in the room!!!!

Hello ladies, very fresh here due to constantly feeling intimidated for reasons I haven’t quite assessed but I feel safe here. I also have felt compelled for the first time to read through an entire thread and I’m not sure if that’s something to do with me or with ILX or what.

I feel completely disengaged from discussions of politics and social justice though my heart is in the right place. I understand feeling enraged to the point of psychological collapse but I don’t have that same investment. Maybe as a teenager I did. I feel I’ll-equipped emotionally to do more than observe and shake my head.

It is heartbreaking what is happening. We’re living an utter catastrophe. I feel so guilty for not being violently angry. I guess I feel sad or powerless (new feelings that just by articulating myself here I’m beginning to uncover).

I want to say Kate that your emotional vulnerability is something I can relate to and this discussion has inspired me to maybe be a little more proactive and dig a little deeper and not be so complacent about political engagement.

Ill-equipped*

Carry on.

hi variablearea, i'm sort of taking a low-key break from the board right now, we'll see how long it lasts, but welcome, whatever your feelings, whatever your experiences are, i'm glad to see you here.

one of the things that does have me feeling sensitive, having slept on it some, is these experiences all being, you know, extremely new to me. it's not how i was raised, and i do feel super conflicted about it. i was saying last friday, i was the victim, for 40 years, of a terrible mistake, and as a result of that awful mistake i was treated and told that my experiences and perspectives were worthwhile, that i was a valuable person.

that's not an experience a lot of cis women have had, and i do find that unfortunate, i do deeply regret it. i haven't learned to put my feelings on a shelf like that. it's not something i _want_ to learn. and people are telling me, you know, honey, if you want to stay alive in this world, you need to learn how to let that stuff go, even though it's not fair or right and we all know it's not fair or right, that's just how things are, that's what we need to do. i understand that, i relate to that, i preach that - do what you need to do to survive, that's the message i spread to anyone who will hear it, over and over and over - but i am struggling with it right now, struggling really hard.

you know, honey, if you want to stay alive in this world, you need to learn how to let that stuff go, even though it's not fair or right and we all know it's not fair or right, that's just how things are

I don't know how much of that is a gendered thing, though? Like a lot of cis-men I am close to also grew up that way. White ones, to boot! I feel like younger women (millennials and younger) have received less of that "training"? I do remember several years ago going to a work meeting with a colleague (she was about my mom's age at the time -- in her late 60s) and the meeting was with a consultant about redesigning our organization's website. And the consultant (a Boomer white cis-male) was super condescending to the point where I kinda called him on it. I think I pointed out that some of my housemates and classmates when I was in my early 20s were some of the first wave of web designers and programmers and I was pretty familiar with a lot of these things he was acting like I couldn't possibly know. Anyway, when we got back to the office, my colleague was upset that I wasn't polite to the consultant and that I should have just let him be condescending. And she said basically, "I know it's frustrating, believe me, I have been dealing with this type of thing since the 1950s, and it was even worse back then!"

idk. i get what you're speaking about, but this particular experience is something i haven't ever experienced when presenting as male but does show up with particular frequency when presenting as female. "self-care" as fatalism, as surrender, i hate to bring up beyonce but that whole "don't hurt yourself" thing. that's different from the situation where asshole boomer guys (women too, but particularly guys) won't ever shut up, don't understand appropriate boundaries, and can't take accountability for their own emotions, which is a cross-gender issue and is more of an implicit "look just give it a couple more years and he'll probably be dead" thing than "this is the way the world has always been and you will only hurt yourself trying to change it" thing.

That is the opposite of what people are actually saying in this thread? And please stop with this "honey" business because I am finding that quite patronising.

What people are saying is:
-choose your battles wisely
-know what your limits are and stop before you hit them
-perserving yourself is a radical act
-conserve your energy to focus on things that will actually affect change

Stuff that I've found genuinely changes things:
-working personally on changing attitudes and systems in your workplace, home, school, etc.
-getting involved with political pressure groups that work on changing the system from inside
-getting involved with grassroots groups that work on removing the system from outside
-donating money if involvement is not possible
-volunteering time if money is an issue
-one on one discussions with individuals who seem like they are actually open to learning

Stuff I've found is a self-destructive waste of time:
-arguing endlessly with fools on the messageboards

Living under oppressive systems is hard. It takes a long-haul approach. It's so seductive to believe that you, single-handedly, overnight, are going to overturn 5000 years of oppression that all those other ~ladies~ have just been sitting around just fatalistically just accepting, because oh those complacent little ladies, they don't know or understand their own conditions and experiences, not like *you* do. Oh wow, have I been there.

Something else that people who are raised as men take for granted: that women / other AFABs exist to provide endless unconditional succor and support and fix their feelings for them when they get hurt. AFABs know you can never take this for granted - the reason feminists talk about Sisterhood so much is because we experience it so rarely. We try to support one another, because women are traditionally supposed to be comfort-givers, not comfort-takers. But if you have been raised as a comfort-taker, and insist on going around bashing your head against brick walls, safe in the knowledge that someone else will always be a comfort-giver and tend to your damaged head - there's a point where you have to stop and consider whether you are actually dismantling the brick wall with your head, or just demanding more resources from the people who are trying to dismantle the brick wall safely, slowly, and without causing too much injury to themselves because no one is going to fix them when they break?

I will regret hitting submit post the moment I do it, but here we go.

It's so seductive to believe that you, single-handedly, overnight, are going to overturn 5000 years of oppression that all those other ~ladies~ have just been sitting around just fatalistically just accepting, because oh those complacent little ladies, they don't know or understand their own conditions and experiences, not like *you* do.

Understanding one’s feelings and understanding one’s conditions are two different things.

Being able to express oneself is also another matter completely.

Also also, Demonizing women for “fatalistically accepting” their conditions of oppression is just as bad as condemning a woman for being, weirdly, too emotionally invested.

But maybe I’m missing your point?

Branwell - fair enough. I don't feel like what you took from my post is what I was trying to say. I take responsibility for my own poor communication skills. I'm trying not to dig myself in any deeper here. Right now I'm hypervigilant. Right now anything anyone says to me feels like an attack. Right now everything I see around me is a brick wall and I'm getting a little claustrophobic.

Instantly-regrettable response to instantly-regrettable post: I'm not hoping for someone to come in and take care of me. I'm hoping to kill myself in the process.

I've got to the point where I've pretty much given up reading any ILM thread about any female artist, at all?

Fair dos. I never came here for the music talk so it's easy for me to abstain.

Hi Roz! Hi variablearea!

Neither here nor there: I've been having increasingly bad back spasms since last fall/winter, until I'm really worried that it's a sign of something bad (don't have insurance right now so I haven't gotten checked out). Yoga/pilates actually makes it worse, and tons of core strength-building hasn't made it any better, but just in the last few days I've had a lot of success with foam-rolling my legs and hips and butt so maybe the problem isn't actually IN my back after all??! Crazy. Off to torture myself again rn.

Stuff that I've found genuinely changes things:
-working personally on changing attitudes and systems in your workplace, home, school, etc.
-getting involved with political pressure groups that work on changing the system from inside
-getting involved with grassroots groups that work on removing the system from outside
-donating money if involvement is not possible
-volunteering time if money is an issue
-one on one discussions with individuals who seem like they are actually open to learning

Stuff I've found is a self-destructive waste of time:
-arguing endlessly with fools on the messageboards

OTM! This has basically been where my head / energy has been at for the past year or so

sarahell, I've been loving getting your emails lately! I'm on the mailing list even though the state-level stuff wouldn't apply to me/us just because I love seeing the organizing & direct support happening. Respect.

aww thanks!

Bodies are weird. My husband has had bad knee problems for a few years and recently discovered the fix - through physio - was actually in his hamstrings and other non-knee areas.

I spent two years suffering a tremendous headache, insomnia, and crippling anxiety thinking they were all separate problems that needed to be treated as such (and of course were intractable). Turns out they were all side effects of a medication I had been taking for a separate condition.

So yeah, bodies are weird, medicine’s weird, idk man.

does/did anyone else get super emo and sobby at the end of their period? like, I am actually pretty chill before, but the last day and the day after, I am "the messy bitch that lives for drama"

No - unfortunately my one big emotional response related to my period is extreeeeeeeeeme irritability the week before it starts. Like, do not breathe wrong around me because I WILL angry-sigh at you.

I’m not on my period but I’m literally crying everyday!

I’ve always assumed that people who are suffering emotionally shut down and sleep all day and cry and wallow in self pity, but I’ve learned that isn’t necessarily the case. I admire people who can sublimate their energy into a productive task that distracts them from their feelings.

some ppl suffer emotionally and have dependants

sometimes the two are linked!

Sorry that was not meant to sound that snarky

It did not sound snarky.

Depressed people, anxious people, people who are depressed and anxious can all be very productive members of society, successful adults. At the risk of sounding prickly, duh?? I mostly object to the “wallow in self pity” part. That’s insulting :(

I guess just, right now, I'm thinking about my own response to emotional distress. I don't mean to put people into two camps. I mean yeah, I wallow in self pity sometimes, I know not everyone else does. On some level I knew that, but I've never been close to someone who presented as my complete opposite in that respect and that's all I was reflecting on.

I do see what would be insulting about assuming that everyone who suffers emotionally suffers in exactly the same way. I see that that is ignorant and reductive and just plain dumb. But what about wallowing in self-pity is insulting?

I guess I did not make it clear in my first post that I was talking about myself. Apologies.

But what about wallowing in self-pity is insulting?

The implication that people who are "suffering emotionally" are "wallowing" is in itself an insulting way to describe emotional suffering. I'm not getting into this 19 min before my therapy appt. Respectfully urging you to think twice before posting stuff like that. If you were talking about yourself, make that clear.

If you were insulting yourself, I also urge you to think twice about that characterization -- it's inaccurate and unfair.

I am not the type to insult myself. I did not, prior to this conversation, think twice about the term "wallowing", nor did it occur to me that it could be insulting.

I know that emotional suffering is not a choice. But in my situation, what I'm thinking about is the fact that I have been inconsolably crying multiple times a day for two weeks? because my life and my relationship are changing and I feel trapped between a rock and a hard place. I decided today, both because I'm so tired of crying, and because my partner can't do anything about it and it is making the tone of these days not what I would like them to be, that I am going to stop being so sentimental and improve myself instead of "wallowing".

This is what was behind what I said when I said that I admire people who can sublimate their emotions into something productive.

I think there are times for all of that. You gotta feel your feelings, you know? But I personally know that "sentimentality" makes me put off important decisions and delay the necessary. Cut the cord imo. Congrats on your new choice and new direction! I hope it is satisfying and moves you in a way that is good and helpful.

The implication that people who are "suffering emotionally" are "wallowing" is in itself an insulting way to describe emotional suffering

idk -- as someone who has suffered from clinical depression and anxiety for over 30 years, there is a wallowing aspect one can choose as a coping mechanism. For me, it's like using circular logic to perpetuate the depressed/anxious mental state and at my worst, it's like it sucks in all of these other things to strengthen the circular pressure of the suffering ... like the classic, "i will never have a loving romantic relationship because i am a horrible person" ... which then will suck in all of these other "facts" (e.g. i am fat) and "feelings" (e.g. i am too judgmental and a bad listener) so that new bad things are added to the spiral and for me to feel bad about ... and I just let the spiral keep circulating and getting stronger, rather than something like: getting up and having a delicious beverage, taking a bath, putting on different music, walking outside (or at least a different room) ... like I choose to let the spiral continue to circulate, and that is how I interpret "wallowing" -- it's something we do, and we can choose to not do it, though depending on what's going on your life/brain/body, that choice could be really fucking hard to make.

I do feel like there is a healthy amount of wallowing one can engage in. It just so happens that this is the first time I'm doing it in the presence of someone who matters to me, and it's affecting them to the point that it's tiresome. Since I care, I have to decide to disengage with that admittedly really indulgent and sort of satisfying practice of weeping copiously and just decide that things are not going to be as bad and scary as my wrong brain has convinced me they will be.

I think what la lechera was suggesting is that i was making a blanket statement about people who suffer emotionally, and that people who really can't help the way they feel are just too weak to suck it up and feel better.

and of course i do not subscribe to that, despite how i may have come off

like the classic, "i will never have a loving romantic relationship because i am a horrible person" ... which then will suck in all of these other "facts" (e.g. i am fat) and "feelings" (e.g. i am too judgmental and a bad listener) so that new bad things are added to the spiral and for me to feel bad about ... and I just let the spiral keep circulating and getting stronger, rather than something like: getting up and having a delicious beverage, taking a bath, putting on different music, walking outside (or at least a different room)

I used to do the exact same! Maybe ultimately I'm anti-wallow though because I would do all the negative self talk and then end up at, "Welp since I'm obviously unloveable and a failure, might as well do something of some practical value" and go fix a bike or something. It was like a fatalistic acceptance of my lack of other kinds of worth but I could at least do a thing.

this is the post i was reacting to

I’ve always assumed that people who are suffering emotionally shut down and sleep all day and cry and wallow in self pity, but I’ve learned that isn’t necessarily the case. I admire people who can sublimate their energy into a productive task that distracts them from their feelings.

― very avant-garde (Variablearea), Wednesday, May 13, 2020 7:04 AM (six hours ago)

Glad to hear you were not intending to make a blanket statement; it read that way to me.

"Welp since I'm obviously unloveable and a failure, might as well do something of some practical value" and go fix a bike or something. It was like a fatalistic acceptance of my lack of other kinds of worth but I could at least do a thing.

I love you!!! This has been me for the past 2 months.

Glad to hear you were not intending to make a blanket statement; it read that way to me.

Honestly, it would read that way to anyone.

happy birthday in orbit!

How are you all going?
Just wondering if you've ever had a potential employer try to directly/indirectly find out about if you have children or plan to have children during a recruitment interview (and if so, how you dealt with it)? Nothing to do with me, and I've only ever worked in workplaces where the interview process has strict guidelines (and just to be clear, it's totally against the law here to ask about children, pregnancy, childcare etc) so it'd be an absolute no-no to even think about broaching it. A friend mentioned something that's niggling her from before lockdown and it set me wondering if people still try this.

I think it's against the law?

Not that people don't ask in sly ways or try to pry the info out coyly but I don't believe it is legal to ask that in an interview.

Yeah, maybe I worded it weirdly but it is against the law here. I just don't know what one would do if asked either directly or in a roundabout way, other than to say 'er, that's not appropriate'. Or if you felt any comment contributed to not getting the job.

"Do you have any... other... commitments in [location you would have to move from to take this job]?" Asked of me a year or so ago in an interview for a lectureship.

Oh, that's a good example.

Ask a roundabout question, get a roundabout answer.

Other commitments? “Not to speak of”
Lol
I hate probing questions that aren’t totally straightforward. If you have to squeeze something out of me, chances are it’s not coming out. That’s for the birds.

She arrived a bit early for the interview and the receptionist type person (older woman) was chatting to her about what area she'd come from, who she lived with etc - newly married - and said something like 'ooh, will babies be on the way' or something annoying like that - friend sort of made polite noises like 'oh, who knows!' (she actually doesn't want kids!) but now she's not sure if that was taken one way or another or passed on to the hiring staff - she didn't get the job. I'm sure it's nothing but it pisses me off that you get asked this even in semi-informal situations.
In my workplaces the receptionist would have been firmly told not to ask such things but I get the feeling this was a more informal place of work.